Alexa Vs. Epic Vs. Scarlet Continued...

[Francesco Bonomo]

Epic and Scarlet are catering towards a younger generation of digital cinematographers who are used to working with technology like touchscreens and fly-by-wire controls and capable of understanding the work-flow from start to finish. They are not for old fogey industry veterans who are used to working on camera systems where everything has it's own dial and you're only responsible for ONE aspect of shooting.

Sorry Bryce, don't take this personally, but I strongly disagree with this, maybe because I'm older than, say, 21 (though younger than 50). I read "digital cinematographers" and I just want to laugh, because it doesn't make any sense. Sure, there's a part of cinematography that's definitely about cameras and technology, but there's so much more to it that a sentence like yours sounds quite short-sighted (or delusional), at best.
Cinematographers, at least the good ones, don't give a flying fuck about touch screen technology or fly-by-wire controls if they can't get the images they want. Those things are interesting and useful up to a certain degree, but they're not the reason one chooses one camera over another. That's one of the reasons why, thank goodness, we can still choose between Red, Alexa, Sony, and (shocking) many different film formats and cameras.

Alexa is nothing but Arri's direct reply to the Red One. It's a faux good idea with a thick coat of solid reputation. The best feature Alexa has is James Cameron. It's a Red One without the funk. It's a bunch of old farts trying to dance to the latest tracks. Embarrassing.

And, dear Lewis, I guess your statement comes from hundreds of hours spent shooting with Alexa, right?
From what I've seen and experienced, the A. is also embarassingly good. Funny, isn't it?

What is really embarrassing is this constant pissing competition between RED and Arri.

Amen, Liam. And, I might add, some sort of fanboyism manifesto, so to speak, that in the end is hurting Red's reputation more than a lot of people would care to admit.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

And, dear Lewis, I guess your statement comes from hundreds of hours spent shooting with Alexa, right? From what I've seen and experienced, the A. is also embarassingly good. Funny, isn't it?

Whatever. I've erased my previous post because this thread is a pointless trap and I don't need this. I'm out, it's sunny! Happy easter!

 

[Paul Nordin]

Alexa is nothing but Arri's direct reply to the Red One. It's a faux good idea with a thick coat of solid reputation. The best feature Alexa has is James Cameron. It's a Red One without the funk. It's a bunch of old farts trying to dance to the latest tracks. Embarrassing.

Um, Louis, this is a pretty rediculous post. Alexa is wonderful cam for shooting small screen format shows...and already into it's second generation. Epic is arguably more innovative and when it starts to ship in quantity, more accessible ( although not inexpensive by a long shot).

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Um, Louis, this is a pretty rediculous post. Alexa is wonderful cam for shooting small screen format shows...and already into it's second generation. Epic is arguably more innovative and when it starts to ship in quantity, more accessible ( although not inexpensive by a long shot).

Again, maybe I should have put more smileys in my post. It's my bad boy's opinion, and I'm a very sarcastic person. Just throwing gas on the fire. Sorry if you didn't get the tone.

 

[AnthonyFlores]

Yep, even Jim agrees the Alex is a nice camera. No need to completely invalidate it. I just saw that it was used on Game of Thrones -- which looks amazing. As Paul just noted, the resolution makes it a bit better for small screen, which something like Game of Thrones is.

Like almost any good camera, put the Alexa into the hands of a capable cinematographer and you'll get something that's visually impressive.

Just because some of us are fully sold on Red, doesn't mean we need to completely invalidate other competitive tools. Another example is the Sony F65. I was
really impressed with the 4k sample piece they showed at NAB. And while I'll probably never own one, I'm happy that it's going to be out there and probably used
on some big features at some point.

And when Arri makes their 4k or 5k camera, I'll be happy about that too. The bar is being raised and we all win

Anthony

 

[Paul Nordin]

Sorry if you didn't get the tone.

Sorry I missed the tone. Probably because you are a glass of wine or so into your evening, and I'm barely finishing my first cup of coffee! Very different perspective.

 

[Lewis-M Soucy]

Sorry I missed the tone. Probably because you are a glass of wine or so into your evening, and I'm barely finishing my first cup of coffee! Very different perspective.

Yeah, something like that... It would have been a face to face, I bet it would have put a laugh on your face... Damn internet...

 

[Imran Farouk]

Yeah, something like that... It would have been a face to face, I bet it would have put a laugh on your face... Damn internet...

guess we need more REDUser meet ups... would help the problem

 

[Ned Wilson]

I really don't care who makes the camera as long as it does what it's designed to do in a spectacular way. Folks posting "old fogey" luddite screeds and slamming cameras they never really used, need to live under a bridge. Nobody except perhaps those who never worked with a full blown studio rig that much care about how big their rig's profile is. Most pros, go with gear that gets the job done. Regarding, cutting edge, "digital cinematographers" growing up with touch screens, blah, blah, has little to do with the price of fish. Somehow, someone over 40 managed to design the Epic. Go figure.

I inquire about dedicated buttons because anyone who's had to shoot documentary, ENG, EFP, Reality, etc. knows there are moments when it's faster to flick a switch to a pre-set white balance, sensitivity, shutter speed / angle, with your eye still on the eyepiece, thereby not missing that critical shot. Tracking from interior to exterior or bright sun to dark hallway are typical situations that professional cameramen encounter quite a bit and rely on certain external dedicated buttons to get you through quickly. Which I think would make an internal ND wheel the killer hardware for any cinema camera, Alexa or Red.

I own a R1 and have used the Alexa extensively. Love them both. I like the ergonomics, button layout and dynamic range of the Alexa better while I dig the R1's 4.5 k and ability to rescale in post. I'm sure the Epic improves on all of this and hope one day to shoot a proper A/B test. If anyone has such a test, steer me to it. And if anyone can chime in on how functional the button/touch screen layout is for quick change of ASA, Shutter, LUT, Color Temp, via pre-sets, that would be great.

In the meantime, I think it's totally valid to compare competing cameras just like we do with lenses, accessories or anything else as long as the conversation sites 1st hand or objective references. It leads to real improvements. And perhaps, it's wise to leave the Logan's Run and partisan sentiments on someone's celebrity blog (I'm sorry, did I date myself with Logan's Run?).

 

[shashbugu]

Sorry Bryce, don't take this personally, but I strongly disagree with this, maybe because I'm older than, say, 21 (though younger than 50). I read "digital cinematographers" and I just want to laugh, because it doesn't make any sense. Sure, there's a part of cinematography that's definitely about cameras and technology, but there's so much more to it that a sentence like yours sounds quite short-sighted (or delusional), at best.
Cinematographers, at least the good ones, don't give a flying fuck about touch screen technology or fly-by-wire controls if they can't get the images they want. Those things are interesting and useful up to a certain degree, but they're not the reason one chooses one camera over another. That's one of the reasons why, thank goodness, we can still choose between Red, Alexa, Sony, and (shocking) many different film formats and cameras.



And, dear Lewis, I guess your statement comes from hundreds of hours spent shooting with Alexa, right?
From what I've seen and experienced, the A. is also embarassingly good. Funny, isn't it?




Amen, Liam. And, I might add, some sort of fanboyism manifesto, so to speak, that in the end is hurting Red's reputation more than a lot of people would care to admit.

You sound like you know a thing or two about DP's that no one else does. Yet again you are another very condescending fellow preaching about what DP's want or don't like. Its like you have a wishlist from every director of photography on the planet. I will let you know that the best interfaces on the planet no matter what industry you are in, is an interactive interface that gives you direct feedback and precise control functionality. To actually be so negative a person to say a technological achievment as advanced as touchscreen technology will be shunned by professionals you know, just shows how out of touch you are. The Alexa is a great imaging camera nuff said, but call us what you want the truth remains, the Epic is the most advanced piece of camera technology on the Planet. I can give 50 different reasons why.

Just becos you call us fanboys does not mean we are not proffesionals. Spend a little time on Reduser and you will find yourself amongst some very brilliant, creative, and technologically savvy individuals. This site although labeled Reduser is frequentlly monitored by competing companies, industry veterans, producers, students, engineers etc etc etc that have nothing to do with RED. Arri has closely followed Red's lead in tribal community relations to build, market and maintain Alexa. Everything from their websites, forums, to meetups and presentation even the new transparency into the Arri factory where you now know people by their first names, is all in response to Red. Sony is actaully inviting DP's to their factories for the firstime in history. Go figure.

 

[shashbugu]

I really don't care who makes the camera as long as it does what it's designed to do in a spectacular way. Folks posting "old fogey" luddite screeds and slamming cameras they never really used, need to live under a bridge. Nobody except perhaps those who never worked with a full blown studio rig that much care about how big their rig's profile is. Most pros, go with gear that gets the job done. Regarding, cutting edge, "digital cinematographers" growing up with touch screens, blah, blah, has little to do with the price of fish. Somehow, someone over 40 managed to design the Epic. Go figure.

I inquire about dedicated buttons because anyone who's had to shoot documentary, ENG, EFP, Reality, etc. knows there are moments when it's faster to flick a switch to a pre-set white balance, sensitivity, shutter speed / angle, with your eye still on the eyepiece, thereby not missing that critical shot. Tracking from interior to exterior or bright sun to dark hallway are typical situations that professional cameramen encounter quite a bit and rely on certain external dedicated buttons to get you through quickly. For those of you who have used the Epic in the field, can it accommodate these type of demands?

I own a R1 and have used the Alexa extensively. Love them both. I like the ergonomics, button layout and dynamic range of the Alexa better while I dig the R1's 4.5 k and ability to rescale in post. I'm sure the Epic improves on all of this and hope one day to shoot a proper A/B test. If anyone has such a test, steer me to it. And if anyone can chime in on how functional the button/touch screen layout is for quick change of ASA, Shutter, LUT, Color Temp, via pre-sets, that would be great.

In the meantime, I think it's totally valid to compare competing cameras just like we do with lenses, accessories or anything else as long as the conversation sites 1st hand or objective references. It leads to real improvements. And perhaps, it's wise to leave the Logan's Run and partisan sentiments on someone's celebrity blog (I'm sorry, did I date myself with Logan's Run?).

well the Epic does all of the above without the need for dedicated buttons.

Have you head of Shooting raw, and shooting HDRX?

 

[Ned Wilson]

Alexa is nothing but Arri's direct reply to the Red One. It's a faux good idea with a thick coat of solid reputation. The best feature Alexa has is James Cameron. It's a Red One without the funk. It's a bunch of old farts trying to dance to the latest tracks. Embarrassing.

So I take it you've much 1st hand experience with the Alexa? Please, break it down for us as well as be specific on its lack of "funk". This old fart needs to improve his dance steps.

 

[Ned Wilson]

well the Epic does all of the above without the need for dedicated buttons.

Have you head of Shooting raw, and shooting HDRX.

So you're saying you have to go to the menu? Could you explain or direct me to the white paper that does ( there are few Epics going around as of now). Of course I know what Raw and HDRX is. Being able to change sensitivity and color temp on the fly, though, is still useful for changing light situations when you need to see what kind of detail you'll get as well as see the relative balance between your light sources. Also, there will be situations where I have to deliver the data "baked in" and not in Raw (as much as I'd rather not - the education and sometimes time restraints of producers prevent this). So please, explain, how I might do on the fly adjustments without taking my eye off the viewfinder with Epic's controls? Just some straight answers or links will suffice. Snarky tone not necessary. Much appreciated. Thanks.

 

[shashbugu]

So you're saying you have to go to the menu? Could you explain or direct me to the white paper that does ( there are few Epics going around as of now). Of course I know what Raw and HDRX is. Being able to change sensitivity and color temp on the fly, though, is still useful when for changing light situations when you need to see what kind of detail you'll get as well as see the relative balance between you light sources.

Jarred just posted the whie paper on Epic on the Recon Thread. The Red1 you already own is actually has a more options for non destructible LUT presets than the Alexa does. When you shoot 35mm film what LUT, or camera temp ranges do you need?, If you pick a 35mm film stock you so deisre you light it, expose for it, frame it, shoot it. these should be the basic principles of an advanced digital camera system. Even better than the 35mm camera systems, with RED you can white balance for color temp in post.

 

[shashbugu]

plus the Epic and Red1 do have buttons and nobs on the body, you can assign whatever function you desire to these nobs for on the fly changes. Read your manual

 

[Ned Wilson]

Jarred just posted the whie paper on Epic on the Recon Thread. The Red1 you already own is actually has a more options for non destructible LUT presets than the Alexa does. When you shoot 35mm film what LUT, or camera temp ranges do you need?, If you pick a 35mm film stock you so deisre you light it, expose for it, frame it, shoot it. these should be the basic principles of an advanced digital camera system. Even better than the 35mm camera systems, with RED you can white balance for color temp in post.

I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. "Relative Color Temp" meaning the differences between other sources. If I can see it with a pre-set, then I know whether it's acceptable or not. I should have been more specific, I'm talking about un controlled lighting situations for now. ENG, Doc, EFP situations (about 80 percent of production work) - not 35mm cine style shoots. It sounds like you've little experience with this or you'd know exactly what I'm talking about. In these types of situations, most clients want the footage end of the day, not in raw, but with a baked in look. Sorry, that's life. In these situations, quick preset access is indispensable

 

[Francesco Bonomo]

I really don't care who makes the camera as long as it does what it's designed to do in a spectacular way. Folks posting "old fogey" luddite screeds and slamming cameras they never really used, need to live under a bridge. Nobody except perhaps those who never worked with a full blown studio rig that much care about how big their rig's profile is. Most pros, go with gear that gets the job done. Regarding, cutting edge, "digital cinematographers" growing up with touch screens, blah, blah, has little to do with the price of fish. Somehow, someone over 40 managed to design the Epic. Go figure.

Ned, at least for me, this is the post of the day. I agree 100%. Thanks.

You sound like you know a thing or two about DP's that no one else does.

If there's a compliment somewhere in that sentence, I fail to find it. My bad...

Yet again you are another very condescending fellow preaching about what DP's want or don't like.

Pretty amazing how you got all that about me without even knowing me. Please point me to whatever part of my message(s) where I claim to be speaking The Truth and not just a personal opinion.

Its like you have a wishlist from every director of photography on the planet.

Again, please let me know where I did write something like that. If I have a wishlist, it's just my own.

I will let you know that the best interfaces on the planet no matter what industry you are in, is an interactive interface that gives you direct feedback and precise control functionality. To actually be so negative a person to say a technological achievment as advanced as touchscreen technology will be shunned by professionals you know, just shows how out of touch you are.

Read my message again, perhaps the second time around you'll understand it. Especially the part where I wrote "...if they can't get the images they want. Those things are interesting and useful up to a certain degree, but they're not the reason one chooses one camera over another...."
Oh, I forgot, thanks for the "out of touch" thing-y....classy, to say the least.

The Alexa is a great imaging camera nuff said, but call us what you want the truth remains, the Epic is the most advanced piece of camera technology on the Planet. I can give 50 different reasons why.

Please, you have plenty of space to do so. If you don't want to do it publicly, do it privately. I'm really interested, especially if that list comes from someone who's used the camera extensively. You said 50, I'll be waiting.

Just becos you call us fanboys does not mean we are not proffesionals.

I'd like to think "fanboy" is more an adjective rather than a noun, if you know what I mean. Somehow, the most interesting posts by the most reliable professionals around here are quite different from those who are usually labelled as "fanboys". And with that I'm not implying that fanboy professionals do not exist, but, based on what I've seen here, usually a professional doesn't use fanboy "techniques" or doesn't have the same attitude, so to speak.

Spend a little time on Reduser and you will find yourself amongst some very brilliant, creative, and technologically savvy individuals.

Check my registration year, I guess I've been here long enough to understand who's who on this boards and to appreciate the contributions of such people.

 

[Ned Wilson]

I have a vested interest in the Epic being the best thing since the wheel. I'm a stage 2 guy. But I also owe it to my clients to be savvy in all offerings out there, pros/cons, etc and avoid any conflict of interests that an owner operator can theoretically have. Right now, my R1 is being slaughtered by Alexa on the rental front, Red Rocket be damned, for all the reasons sited. It paid for itself a while back, so I can live with that. When Epic arrives, I want to be fully prepared knowing how it compares and make my rig as competitive as possible. I'm fairly confident, it's small form will be it's major selling point and will keep it a front runner for a year or two. Things I would like to know is: how practical is HDR regarding bandwidth / storage. Can HDR be done recording straight to proxy codecs like Pro Rez, DNX. The reason I ask is as Alexa exhibits more dynamic range, will the HDR more than make up for this as well as be practical? Also, what is the effect upon movement in HDR as I know it works with two different shutter angles? The only HDR tests I've seen were by Jarred in a barn. Although great exhibition of increased dynamic range, I didn't get a chance to see any tests with strong movement.

Enlightenment please. Save the derision and condescension, please and let's bring this back to a discussion. I'm here to learn.

Thanks.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

I have a vested interest in the Epic being the best thing since the wheel. I'm a stage 2 guy. But I also owe it to my clients to be savvy in all offerings out there, pros/cons, etc and avoid any conflict of interests that an owner operator can theoretically have. Right now, my R1 is being slaughtered by Alexa on the rental front, Red Rocket be damned, for all the reasons sited. It paid for itself a while back, so I can live with that. When Epic arrives, I want to be fully prepared knowing how it compares and make my rig as competitive as possible. I'm fairly confident, it's small form will be it's major selling point and will keep it a front runner for a year or two. Things I would like to know is: how practical is HDR regarding bandwidth / storage. Can HDR be done recording straight to proxy codecs like Pro Rez, DNX. The reason I ask is as Alexa exhibits more dynamic range, will the HDR more than make up for this as well as be practical? Also, what is the effect upon movement in HDR as I know it works with two different shutter angles? The only HDR tests I've seen were by Jarred in a barn. Although great exhibition of increased dynamic range, I didn't get a chance to see any tests with strong movement.

Enlightenment please. Save the derision and condescension, please and let's bring this back to a discussion. I'm here to learn.

Thanks.

You may be here to learn but it doesn't seem like you've made much of an effort to do any research... There are a lot of posts about HDRx and Jim, himself has spent a considerable amount of time and effort posting about it. I doubt anyone is going to be able to "enlighten" you in one or two posts but to answer your questions...

- HDRx is exactly twice the data rate of shooting normally, so twice the bandwidth and storage
- It can add up to 6 stops to your normal exposure so you are looking at a total dynamic range of about 18 stops
- doubtful that HDRx can be recorded straight to anything else as, right now, it can only be re-combined in post
- there are some good examples around of motion blur characteristics
- motion blur with HDRxcan be handled a couple different ways in post

Enjoy your research! :001_smile:

 

[Fredrik Callinggard]

Jesus what a silly thread. I'm surprised that moderators hasn't shut this one down already? What good does all this nagging with each other do? There's no actual constructive cinematography sharing at all. Just a lot of fanboy flame wars.