AJA HI-5-4K + Kona 3g + FCP-X + SEIKI workflow - also Red Rocket test

[Tonaci Tran]

Hello fellow workflow gurus. In case you are interested, I created this thread to report my experiences with the AJA Hi5-4K.
If any of you have the HI5-4k, I would appreciate any help.

I use FCPX when cutting RED footage. I am trying to create a system that will work with my macbook pro laptop and allow me to get 4k output into my Seiki when working in FCPX.

I just got in the AJA HI-5 4K and wanted to immediately use it to feed 4k to my Seiki monitor.
So far...no luck. =(

Components:

Kona 3G with quadruple HD-SDI breakout cables. (I tested hdmi output directly out of card and was unable to drive the panel so my assumption is that the HDMI output on the kona 3g is 1080 HD resolution only)
--> AJA -HI5-4K

KONA 3g Settings and Hi-5K

I tried all the options - quad HD psf up to 4k at all the available frame rates and got no luck.

IN FCPX, I am seeing the KONA being selected for A/V output:

When I toggle between the different control panels...I sometimes get a picture into the Seiki, but when i press play on the timeline, the picture goes to green on the Seiki.

I am just reporting the current state of my experience using the AJA Hi5-4K with the Seiki.

Later tonight, I will be picking up a RED breakoutbox and will give my red rocket + AJA Hi5 4k a try.

I am sending an email to AJA support to see if they can help.

Will keep you all posted and any help would be appreciated. thx!

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I just got in the AJA HI-5 4K and wanted to immediately use it to feed 4k to my Seiki monitor.
So far...no luck. =(

Interesting. We had this pairing working a few weeks back. There were occasional drop-outs, but it worked, same with several other sources at the time. Have not revisited it since the past couple Seiki firmware updates.

Kona 3G with quadruple HD-SDI breakout cables. (I tested hdmi output directly out of card and was unable to drive the panel so my assumption is that the HDMI output on the kona 3g is 1080 HD resolution only)
--> AJA -HI5-4K

Correct, no 4K over HDMI.

Later tonight, I will be picking up a RED breakoutbox and will give my red rocket + AJA Hi5 4k a try.

This is the combo we used with the Seki. Along with the Kona 3G. Both produced the same results for us at the time.

 

[Bill Sepaniak]

... I am sending an email to AJA support to see if they can help.

I just got my Hi 5-4K yesterday. However, I won't be able to pull out my K3 card and install my K3G until this weekend. So, I am no help. However, AJA support is legendary. I don't know where you are, but I would certainly give AJA a call and see if they can't walk you through the set-up. I know for a fact that AJA has tested the K3G + Hi 5-4K + Seiki combination. Not sure if they have tested the Red Rocket, but I am sure they will let you know one way or the other. Keep us posted.

_____________________________
Scarlet X # 1859 “Bettie Page”
“… preparing to ‘whip’ the competition …”

Zeiss Lenses:

CY 21/2.8
ZF 28/2.0
CY 35-70/3.4
CY 50/1.4
ZF100/2.0

Nikon Lenses:
G 14-24/2.8
G 24-70/2.8
D 80-200/2.8

Tokina Lenses:

11-16/2.8

 

[Ron Lagerlof]

Has anyone gotten this to work? I have the AJA Hi5-4K connected to the Rocket Bob using outputs 1A,2A,3A,4A (had to swap outputs 2&3 to get the picture to display the quadrants correctly) Seiki reports 3840x2160@24Hz, but I have no red color (I'm assuming this is what you meant by "green" picture) If I set the Rocket card to 1920x1080, 8Bit RGB, and set the AJA to 2xSDI HD-DL and use outputs 1A&B of the Bob I get a 1920x1080 picture in full color. Is the AJA the problem here? Or are there any other settings that I should try?

 

[Neil W. Smith]

4K and UHDTV are different resolutions ...

4K and UHDTV are different resolutions ...

Hello fellow workflow gurus. In case you are interested, I created this thread to report my experiences with the AJA Hi5-4K.
If any of you have the HI5-4k, I would appreciate any help.

I use FCPX when cutting RED footage. I am trying to create a system that will work with my macbook pro laptop and allow me to get 4k output into my Seiki when working in FCPX.

I just got in the AJA HI-5 4K and wanted to immediately use it to feed 4k to my Seiki monitor.
So far...no luck. =(

Components:

Kona 3G with quadruple HD-SDI breakout cables. (I tested hdmi output directly out of card and was unable to drive the panel so my assumption is that the HDMI output on the kona 3g is 1080 HD resolution only)
--> AJA -HI5-4K

KONA 3g Settings and Hi-5K

I tried all the options - quad HD psf up to 4k at all the available frame rates and got no luck.

IN FCPX, I am seeing the KONA being selected for A/V output:

When I toggle between the different control panels...I sometimes get a picture into the Seiki, but when i press play on the timeline, the picture goes to green on the Seiki.

I am just reporting the current state of my experience using the AJA Hi5-4K with the Seiki.

Later tonight, I will be picking up a RED breakoutbox and will give my red rocket + AJA Hi5 4k a try.

I am sending an email to AJA support to see if they can help.

Will keep you all posted and any help would be appreciated. thx!

Tonaci,

The reason for your trouble is this, my friend:

1) at the moment FCP X is only capable of outputting a 4096 x 2160 image signal ... setting the Kona or Blackmagic card to 3840 x 2160 will not change that.

2) we use FCP X with the Kona 3G to Hi5-4K to output 4096 x 2160 to a SONY VPL-VW1000SE 4K projector no problem.

3) the SEIKI will only receive a 3840 x 2160 signal therefore you can not output a FCP X signal to the SEIKI.

4) we use DaVinci Resolve with the BMD DeckLink Extreme 4K to BMD HD SDI to HDMI convertor to get a 3840x2160 signal into the SEIKI no problem.

So the short answer to your question is that if you want go out 4K from FCP X you have to have a 4096 x 2160 capable projector (or monitor) ... the problem is not with the KONA 3G to Hi5-4K processing chain or with the SEiKI ... all work totally fine with the correct signal path.

Unfortunately, "4K" means several things at the moment ... DCI 4K, i.e., 4096 x 2160 ... and UHDTV "4K" i.e., 3840x2160 ... at our FCP X 4K training sessions we go to great lengths to explain the different workflows and which tools are best suited for which kinds of monitoring.

The other issue is this - the Kona 3G card is capable of outputting both 4096 x 2160 and 3840 x 2160 but the Blackmagic Decklink 4K card only outputs 3840x2160 so you can't use the BMD DeckLink in FCP X for 4K output, and for some strange reason, DaVinci Resolve will not work with the Kona 3G/Hi5-4K (surprising, I know) ... which is why we have Resolve going out to the SEIKI UHDTV through DeckLink and FCP X going out to the SONY projector through the AJA pipeline :-(

Our next 'FCPX Unplugged' session will be on Saturday July 20th in the Fairbanks Theater on The Lot ... we're already planning on having a ten minute tutorial on 4K monitoring showing the different combinations of FCP X and Resolve with Kona 3G/Hi5-4k and BMD 4K Decklink/HDI-HDMI into the SEIKI UHDTVs and the SONY 4K projector ...the 'FCP X Unplugged' sessions are free and run from 10 am to 12 noon on the third Saturday of each month ... registration details are on our LumaForge website - you must register before hand or Lot Security won't let you through.

http://www.lumaforge.com/page12/index.html

The irony is that even for our UHDTV Content Competition which SEIKI Digital are co-sponsoring with us, we still have to call it the '4K Content Competition' to avoid confusion even though everything will be shown at 3840 x 2160 resolution ... and of course the current HDMI 1.4a standard only allows for 3840 x 2160 resolution so until Apple gets its act together the only way you're going to be able to see a 4K image out of FCP X is through a 4k projector and not a UHDTV ... fun huh?

http://www.4kcompetition.com

Hope to see you on the 20th ... we may even have the new 39 inch SEIKI to play with ... at only $799 it's going to be a great "4K" monitor to have on your desktop or DIT cart!

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Neil W. Smith]

HDCP encryption ...

HDCP encryption ...

Thinking about the issue this morning, it occurred to me that another factor to maybe take into account might be HDCP encrypting ... the reason I say that is the the HDMI spec mandates a HDCP encrypted or unencrypted signal and I don't think the AJA Hi5-4K does encrypted ... the HDMI input on the SEIKI may be looking for a HDCP encrypted flag in order to work correctly.

I just checked the AJA support website and came across this snippet:

"HDCP - The Hi5-4K does not encode the HDMI output with HDCP encryption. By definition, HD-SDI inputs to the Hi5-4K are unencrypted. The HDMI specification requires HDMI monitors to support unencrypted inputs."

http://www.aja.com/en/products/mini-converters/hi54k/#techspecs

Let me check with my AJA contacts and see if that's the issue.

Jeff K, any thoughts on HDCP and Hi5-HD to SEIKI?

Neil

 

[Bill Sepaniak]

I still haven't hooked up my K3G and Hi-5 4K to my Seiki (on my "to-do list" for this week) so I may be skating on thin ice here, but isn't the Hi-5 4K supposed to be able to input a 4096 x 2160 signal and then output a 3840 x 2160 signal to the HDMI out?

AJA's literature states:

"Typical 4K signals use a resolution of 4096x2160 pixels while UltraHD signals measure 3840x2160. This difference can prevent some monitors from being used either in full 4K workflows or in UltraHD workflows. Hi5-4K can compensate for these resolution differences, allowing UltraHD monitors to be used in 4K productions and vice versa."

And, page 14 of the Hi-5 4K manual states:

"4K/2K Crop: Choose Auto, Off, or On. Provides the option of center cutting 2Kx1080 video signals to make 1920x1080, or center cutting a 4Kx2160 signal to make 3840x2160."

I know that AJA bought several Seiki panels and tested the K3G and HI-5 4K with them.. When all else fails .... call AJA support.





___________________________________
Scarlet X # 1859 “Bettie Page”
“… preparing to ‘whip’ the competition …”

Zeiss Lenses:

CY 21/2.8
ZF 28/2.0
CY 35-70/3.4
CY 50/1.4
ZF100/2.0
CY 135/2.8

Nikon Lenses:
G 14-24/2.8
G 24-70/2.8
D 80-200/2.8

Tokina Lenses:

11-16/2.8

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

HDMI 2.0... NOW!

HDMI 2.0... NOW!

Yes, I know in 2013 UHD/4K is "cutting edge" technology on some level. I still find it utterly ridiculous that just connecting the devices to each other is such an issue.

For starters, HDMI 2.0 should have been readily available in 2012.

IMO, if the major CE vendors overplay strategies to speed replacement cycles, such as stalling interconnect standards advancements, the blowback risk is high. S3D had numerous challenges, but the train wreck of a rollout didn't help.

There's a cliche that goes "a rising tide lifts all boats". At this early stage of the UHD/4K rollout I call on the stakeholders to balance their competitive imperatives with the need to establish an ecosystem that promotes a rewarding customer experience. Selling UHD/4K devices with severely limited connection capabilities is a bit of a time bomb that could lead to a lot of negative spin from the most ardent early adopters. It also makes the early sales numbers artificially weak as folks who would otherwise purchase the new hardware wait for decent connectivity options.

FWIW, the current state of affairs, in particular the glacial pace of getting HDMI 2.0 deployed, could be a big opportunity for Apple. If, as many of us anticipate, Apple enters the living room with a large high resolution "TV" that is essentially a big iMac that provides straightforward access to UHD/4K content from within their walled garden it just might become the dominant delivery platform very quickly.

Cheers - #19

 

[Ron Lagerlof]

HI Neil,
I, too, wondered about the "cropping" capability of the AJA box. It seems that if I set the rocket card to 4096x2160 it will crop the image and give me the desired aspect ratio on the Seiki. That said, I have only gotten this to work in "2K" so in reality 2048x1080 crops to give me a full screen image on the display.

My problem is still that there is no red channel when in 4xSDI 4K mode. I get full color in 2xSDI HD-DL mode. I'm wondering if the AJA only does 444 in 4K that the Seiki expects 422??? Just reaching at straws here.

So, you have no problems with the BMD box? Maybe I'll order one of those. After all, as a dealer I should be able to test all their products.... ;-)
btw - Ultrastudio 4K is still giving me fits. I can get a picture, but using it with Premier Pro it is ultra jerky running 3840x2160 PR4x4 files and even looking at it on the Apple Thunderbolt Display the video is still so stutterey that it is unwatchable until I disconnect the US4K. Need a little more time to look into this...
R

 

[Neil W. Smith]

HI Neil,
I, too, wondered about the "cropping" capability of the AJA box. It seems that if I set the rocket card to 4096x2160 it will crop the image and give me the desired aspect ratio on the Seiki. That said, I have only gotten this to work in "2K" so in reality 2048x1080 crops to give me a full screen image on the display.

My problem is still that there is no red channel when in 4xSDI 4K mode. I get full color in 2xSDI HD-DL mode. I'm wondering if the AJA only does 444 in 4K that the Seiki expects 422??? Just reaching at straws here.

So, you have no problems with the BMD box? Maybe I'll order one of those. After all, as a dealer I should be able to test all their products.... ;-)
btw - Ultrastudio 4K is still giving me fits. I can get a picture, but using it with Premier Pro it is ultra jerky running 3840x2160 PR4x4 files and even looking at it on the Apple Thunderbolt Display the video is still so stutterey that it is unwatchable until I disconnect the US4K. Need a little more time to look into this...
R

Ron, the BMD DeckLink 4K to the BMD HDSDI to 4KHDMI Convertor combination works a treat for monitoring 3840 x 2160 out of DaVinci Resolve into the SEIKI 50 inch ... very happy with that signal path - totally smooth at 30 fps. Our test machine in the lab is a fully loaded 27 inch iMac going out Tbolt to a MAGMA PCIe expansion box with the DeckLink 4K Extreme card in it. Have you checked your drive speeds? ... that may be the cause of the stuttering when playing 4K files ... we use the ExaSAN PCIe A12 RAIDs or ARECA Thunderbolt RAIDs - both very fast!

Also, make sure you download the latest firmware for the SEIKI and calibrate the panel to Rec. 709 ... once dialed in the SEIKI is a very cost-effective way to monitor a 4K/UHDTV image coming out of Resolve.

The AJA K3G to Hi5-4K combination works terrifically for true 4K (4096 x 2160) into the SONY 1000ES projector out of FCP X - full color and great image .... just had some feedback from one of the guys at AJA (so cool that they respond on a Sunday) that Tonaci may have had his Hi5-4K set up incorrectly .... I'm going to test the alternative approach first thing tomorrow when I get to the lab ... Tech Support from AJA will also chime in with their recommendations once they get in.

It would be great if FCP X could output a 3840x2160 signal, that way we could use the BMD DL 4K Extreme to HDSDI/4KHDMI for both Resolve and FCP X monitoring ... or wishfully, it'd be great if we could monitor Resolve out of the AJA K3 card .... not going to happen any time soon :-(

Not sure about your Tbolt Ultrastudio 4K issue ... will get one to test.

Neil

 

[Ron Lagerlof]

Have you checked your drive speeds?
----snip---
Not sure about your Tbolt Ultrastudio 4K issue ... will get one to test.

Neil

Thanks, Neil.
Right on about drive speed. Only way I can get it working smoothly is running off the second internal SSD with nothing else attached. Disconnected all Pegusus and TB enclosure for rocket

I'll loan you my US4K. I leave on Tuesday for SF for the rest of the week and won't have use for it for a couple of weeks. You can come by my studio or send a runner... PM me.
Thanks
Ron

 

[Neil W. Smith]

4K/UHDTV monitoring

4K/UHDTV monitoring

Thanks, Neil.
Right on about drive speed. Only way I can get it working smoothly is running off the second internal SSD with nothing else attached. Disconnected all Pegusus and TB enclosure for rocket

I'll loan you my US4K. I leave on Tuesday for SF for the rest of the week and won't have use for it for a couple of weeks. You can come by my studio or send a runner... PM me.
Thanks
Ron

Thanks mate ... I'll see if i can get it working ... will send a courier .. PM on its way.

If you're back in town by the 20th maybe come over to our FCP X Unplugged session on The Lot in West Hollywood ... we'll have a session on different 4K monitoring options for FCP X and Resolve ... should be able to demo quite a few different options by then.

These are still early days for UHDTV post but it's good to be sorting out the issues now ..... as soon as HEVC and VP9 encoding gets here and consumers start buying HEVC enabled OTT boxes the demand for 4K content should take off ... exciting times .... RED was way ahead of the curve in terms of 4K acquisition ... 4K delivery into the home is about to catch up.

Neil

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

I'll be back to my equipment where I can play with some of this stuff on tuesday. Will get a BOB and Hi5-4K here probably wednesday to do some re-testing. We did have it working, kinda-sorta, several weeks back when my friend first got his Hi5 and I just got the SEIKI.

Decklink 4K is still a no-go on our end for the SEIKI. REDRAY seems to work good outputting to SEIKI if we run it through something that boosts the signal -- like a HDBASE-T balun set or a Gefen HDMI matrix. My readings of the outs on the REDRAY vs. what comes out of the matrix seem about the same. So I'm not so sure that it's entirely about signal levels. Could have something to do with maintaining a stable EDID package.

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

Hey Jeff, could it be that the Seiki lacks a robust enough buffer to "fix" all but the tiniest sync/signal timing issues?

Displays with extensive internal DSP circuitry, like the Sonys', are perhaps more adept at dealing with slightly less than ideal signal.

Cheers - #19