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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

... Ah... I don't think I can buy Raven... thinking about canceling the order.

Nick Gardner said:
You are flat out out of your mind. You can shoot Red dragon in just about anything you can see in with reasonably fast lenses. If you want to shoot in the dark, knock your self out, but that's not cinematography.

Hell, I shot an entire feature on red one MX and the biggest units I used the whole movie was a source 4 par. If you don't have enough light to shoot Red, you are doing it wrong.

Nick
Click to expand...

Yup, you are right, as a DP, I didn't get good gigs that can afford 1.2k HMI for 20 days even... Last feature, the strongest light that we had was 2k Tungsten.

That's why I think, I have to stick with a bit more low noise friendly camera. But, it doesn't mean that I should stop working in low budget film gig isn't it...?
I just don't like to stay at home doing nothing, I just love narratives... I just want to work. Keep me busy whether it's low budget, or not so good payment.

...

DIY minds is really needed I guess...
 
Best of luck Minu! Hope your situation becomes better, seriously.
 
I think Steve hit the nail on the head.

Minu: not sure you're comparing apples to apples. Yes, the FS7 is "better" in lowlight, but its also applying denoising in-camera, which presumably is why the color science isn't as robust. Red and blue channels are the most adversely affected by denoising.

On RED with LLO, you can shoot 3200 iso at 1.4 and be completely clean (we shoot 800/2.8 all the time). And then apply denoising later if necesarry.

But thats DSMC1.

Raven is DSMC2. It will be even cleaner in lowlight. The boards and auto-calibration seem to make a big difference. I cant' stop thinking about Matt Ryan Hasslet and Nick Fury's 4K Weapon tests...shot 20:1...where they pushed 640 ISO to 5000 ISO...with NO NOISE.

As a last reminder of RED lowlight, here's a music video we shot in 2010 on a RED ONE M at 320 wide open on B-Speeds, with only a Joker 800 and some stage lights, at the normally pretty dim (and now defunct) Trash Bar:

https://vimeo.com/80349401

Notice it's clean as a whistle.

If we could do it then, you can do it now!!

Best
 
Dragon with LLO OLPF, fast lenses like the CN-E and minor noise reduction will get you very far. I shot this in almost darkness. It was raining and we couldn't get the shot we wanted until it stopped, which it did around the time we were way past daytime light and nowhere near an optimal situation for that scene. But even though I have the STH OLPF I shot this wide open at T1.2 and while a pain for my focus puller we got the shot. But as you can see, when placing the ISO at around the rated ISO for the sensor, it's essentially darkness. I pushed the ISO to 1600 in Resolve and did some minor noise reduction until it looks like a daytime shot.

So if you know what you are doing you can get what you want even without big lights. But if you shoot with T3.0 lenses or zooms you're out of luck. Shooting low light is less about the camera and more about what lenses and post production workflow. If you think you found a camera that is clean at high ISO, think again, most of the time it's just internal NR or other things making it look good from the get go. With Red it's RAW so you'll see the image as it probably looks in any other camera, if you were able to see it RAW in them.
 

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Good riddance. Red is a cinema camera, not primarily live event camera with internal noise reduction, ND filter wheel, compressed codec for quick turnaround etc. It was designed as a film alternative/replacement, not high-end video camcorder.
 
I'm just reading through this thread.

You are blaming the camera because there is no budget to light? You blame the camera because a producer just drops shit on you in the middle of a shoot? You want to work hard so you'll take any job with no budget.

At some point no budget will always look like no budget.

If you want a point a shoot low light camera there are plenty of choices and you and your clients would probably be much happier, but it seems you are going th eopposite direction from many people doing low budget. Most people tend to want to move from amaturish cameras to more professional gear as opposed to already owning the best cameras and getting rid of them for inferior cameras that fit a very narrow and specific profile. But that might be the market segment you have chosen to be in, in which case it would probably be best for you to cancell the orders, seel off your red stuff and buy several "other cameras" that suit the type of productions you are working on.

Everyone should do as they wish, but part of your work as an image maker is to create great images and it's not always about getting a motherload of shit piled on you by some "producer". Sometimes you have to stand up for the images you create and the tools you need to create them.
 
Come on man, what an off-base post! Read what the poor man actually wrote. He's shooting live bands. Maybe that's not "cinematography," but it is work. And it has to be done well, under a lot of challenging constraints... that you completely ignored.
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Hiya, If you read the post, you would see that he didn't explain fuck all untill after my post. So his examples all came after the fact. Maybe I'm just old, and actually remember when 500asa was a big deal. These modern comeras are fucking magic. I can shoot anything you want with $200 and an hour at home depot.

If you are creatively challenged by Dragons limitations, it ain't the cameras fault.

Nick
 
A couple of things to add.

1) The FS7 is certainly not really ISO 2000 when you're shooting Cine EI at EI-2000, regardless of what it says. Probably 1250/1600ISO.
2) I'd have killed for the lighting package you described for some of the stuff I did with my Scarlet, and I still managed to get decent results.
3) Clearly Raven (or any Red) is not the camera for the type of stuff you are shooting at the moment. There's a point where trying to force a square peg (the camera) into a round hole (the budget/production) just leaves you with a broken hammer. That's not a fault of the camera and don't think anyone has ever suggested no-light shooting is where Red's cameras shine most... Personally I'd say grab yourself a couple of A7sIIs and rigs with soe lovely fast glass.

Nick, if shooting Cine-EI mode the FS7 isn't adding NR in camera.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
But as you can see, when placing the ISO at around the rated ISO for the sensor, it's essentially darkness. I pushed the ISO to 1600 in Resolve and did some minor noise reduction until it looks like a daytime shot.
Click to expand...

Pretty impressive end result considering the conditions. Nice job.
 
Vadim Bobkovsky said:
Good riddance. Red is a cinema camera, not primarily live event camera with internal noise reduction, ND filter wheel, compressed codec for quick turnaround etc. It was designed as a film alternative/replacement, not high-end video camcorder.
Click to expand...

You would be surprised to know just how many types of live productions use Red cameras despite the fact that it was designed as a "film alternative" as you say... No one said anything about internal NDs or internal noise reduction but a higher base sensitivity is definitely within the realm of possibility here. The fact the Red listens to feedback from the broadcast users is a clear indication that they very much care about that market.
 
Not sure if RAVEN will be able to utilise this feature, what about frame averaging? apart from OPLF and HDRX there seems to be a few tricks to shoot in less than ideal light conditions.

Reading this thread makes me think I'm spoiled by shooting with my fs7 + speedbooster lol!
 
Nick Gardner said:
Hiya, If you read the post, you would see that he didn't explain fuck all untill after my post. So his examples all came after the fact. Maybe I'm just old, and actually remember when 500asa was a big deal. These modern comeras are fucking magic. I can shoot anything you want with $200 and an hour at home depot.

If you are creatively challenged by Dragons limitations, it ain't the cameras fault.

Nick
Click to expand...
"Recently I've directed several shows and live band session with multiple dragons..." That's the very first sentence, and really all anyone would need to know.
 
We can agree to disagree. Shooting a live band doesn't mean it happens in the dark. I've shot plenty of live music and there has always been plenty of light. And again, he says he's shooting with Dragons, which are amazing low light cameras, so.....yeah. We'll agree to disagree.

Nick
 
I wouldn't be blaming the camera. It's not the amount of light, its how you place it, as there's a big difference between exposure and mood. You have to remember we are at a point where cameras are so sensitive, not having enough exposure is not much a issue anymore. If your job requires you to need to light at 3200 ISO then buy or rent a A7SII. If you want to light to 250-2000ISO, Dragon is a great choice. Each job's needs are different camera. Just as each job needs a different lighting package, there's no lighting package to do every job, same thing as camera. So choose your camera accordingly as well your light per job.
 
Tony Ditata said:
I feel like everyone should really take this into consideration and cancel their orders as well. I'm very far back on the line and I would really appreciate it.
Click to expand...

I was DYING when I read this hahahaha. I second that motion, yes, everybody please reconsider and cancel your Raven orders! You don't need it!
 
As someone who utilizes the low-light capabilities of the A7s to the max, and has a Raven on pre-order, I'll chime in. About 50% of the time I find myself shooting in the 2500-3200 ISO range in order to keep my aperture at around F6.3 - F7.1 for deep enough depth of field to not have to use a follow-focus in the 24mm to 35mm range where I mostly shoot. This has been a huge benefit over the 5D mark II I was using before and made my workflow a lot easier for quick shoots, small crew, with little setup or downtime between takes.

I too worry about "going back" to a camera with *normal* low-light sensitivity like the Raven. However, with the difference in sensor size/crop I imagine that on the Raven at F4 I'll get about the same (if not wider) DOF at 16mm (30mm FOV equivalent) to what I'm doing at F6.3, so that ISO range of 2500-3200 might be more like 1600-2000 on the Raven at F4 for similar exposure, which I believe will be very usable based on what I've read. And realistically if I need anything more than that, then the A7s will still be the right camera for the job. The Raven will be a welcome addition to more than half of my use cases, and that definitely justifies my buying decision.
 
The thing I like about the RED System is that I can recover from any exposure mistakes in Post.
 
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