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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

After Effects Red Colorspace Workflow

A

André Inácio

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Hi all!

My company works essencially with 3D architectural visualization films, and we do a lot of integrations with greenscreen footage and our 3D.
For the first time we shoot with the Red One camera, and it is causing us a little confusion about how to interpret those files correctly in after effects.

For what i've read so far in the adobe help files, the correct workflow would be:
- Create the main Comp, set it to 32bpc, and assign it an HDTV(Rec.709) colorspace.
- Import the .R3D footage, interpret footage, and set the color profile too to HDTV(Rec.709).
- View > Simulate output > Here I set it to my monitor calibration profile.

The problem is, that the footage just don't looks right. If i open the same footage in Red Cine, the footage is great, but i can't figure out how to interpret it correctly in after effects.


What i came up to do so far is:
- Create the main Comp and set it to 32bpc;
- Then, I import the .R3D file to after effects, interpret footage, and click on the Preserve RGB checkbox.


This way the footage looks equal to the Red Cine, but i'm afraid that by this workflow i am not taking the full advantage of the .R3D file

Can someone tell me what i'm doing wrong?

I'm working with After Effects CS5.5 Version 10.5.1.2




Thank's in advance, and sorry for my bad english.

André Inácio
 
On the footage, you right clic and interpret / main… Then you clic "more option" (bottom left), and this is where you open the magic box of the RAW :)

In this RAW window, this is where you "develop" your R3Ds (think as your RAW R3D files as negatives, back in the age of film stock). You can set how the RAW info is going to be interpreted as RGB. The more important being the color space and the gamma. Then of course you have all the buttons you can find in RedCine Pro-X (curves, balance, tint, ISO, FLUT, shadow, brightness, contrast,…)

Hope that helps.
 
Thank you Julien, that "more options" menu was really the only thing i've never checked. I'm better understanding now the workflow, and i've already seen the advantages of working over the raw data.

Jeff, that video is essencial for peoplo like me who are working with red footage for the first time.

However, The thing i noticed is that i feel a little limited in that "more options" window, because i can't do mask to a specific part of the shot and change the brightness only in that spot for example. Do you know what i mean? If i do the same but outside the "more options" window with a brightness effect for example, am i working over the raw data?

Again thank you two, i'm getting in the right way i think ;)


André Inácio
 
André,

what you're trying to do needs to be done with the After Effects regular tools... You duplicate your layer, you drow a mask onto the top one, and you applie a different color grad using the CC tools of AE (or you create an effect layer and applie a mask just the same)...

If you want this spot to be color corrected differently, but not using the AE CC effects, then you need to dupplicate your R3D file in the bin, then change your raw setting for it. Now you have 2 versions of the same raw file, but they are "developed" differently. Now in the comp window, your bring your new developed file on top of the previous, and you drow your mask for the specific zone, adjuste the feather...

You end up with a color corrected zone that was done with raw settings...

I'm using this technic when I have huge difference of amount of light within a same frame: lets say I want to protect the highlights or get back details in a sky that is too bright. I would develop a first file at 800ISO for the main action, and I would duplicate it and develop a second version at 320ISO to get the sky right. Then I will use a mask, or a luminance matte to do a sky replacement.... Basicaly it's replacing the sky by a better exposed version of it self...

But in most case, I will avoid this technic and only use the regular CC tools of AE...

Julien
 
Exactly! This is what i've been doing so far. I just tought that there is another way, because by this way the project becomes very heavy, and in a big compositing file it turns down to a slower work rythm. Maybe this is something to suggest to adobe, to be able to work over the raw footage with after effects (not by that more options window).

Thanks Julien, i'm going with that workflow, and so far so good.
 
Thanks Julien, i'm going with that workflow, and so far so good.
Click to expand...

You're welcome, André

In the meantime I'm really interested by any sort of documentation that can help figure out Color Management in AE…

I'm not talking about RED workflow specific, but more generally Color Management in general in AE…

The kind of documentation that can answer this type of questions:

How to set your monitor workspace? Live it the way it is, of changing to the appropriate workspace you're actually working with?
When to set color management turned on and off in AE (previewing is almost impossible with CM turned on)?
Is the "View / Simulate output" is actually here to help you work with the CM turned of and still display accurate results of what your going to obtain after rendering with CM turned on?
The advantage of working with 10 bits monitors? and things to know when using such equipment : is DVI actually able to display 10 bits?

I found the Adobe Help very basic, like "this button does this", "this setting sets this"… it's not really explaining the "why" and "how" of that science…

Thanks

Julien
 
Yes adobe is a little limited about the color management information. Althought, they have a document that should help you understand the main concepts of color management in AE. Send me your e-mail that i'll sent the .pdf to you.

I'm still discovering it too, because we work mainly with HD video we just use the HDTV (Rec.709) colorspace.
We use colorspace to be sure that the color information is allways read and interpreted the same way, regardless of the different monitors (and calibration profiles) through the entire pipeline.

I actually don't use the view/simulate output because it just simulates how your composition will look like in a different device.

About the 10 bits monitors question, i really don't know the answer, as i said, i'm still struggling to understand it too ;)

Some in depth information about this subject is missing in adobe's help. Like you said, it's mostly "like this button does this.."


André Inácio
 
Hi Andre, I would like to read that document too. Would you be able to post a link here?

Good posts too, Julian.

Best

Lliam
 
There's no need for you to upload and post these documents. The Adobe white paper on color management is linked to from After Effects Help:
http://adobe.ly/ySDTIh
 
> Todd - is there a document like this for Premiere 5.5? I looked, but didn't find one?
Click to expand...

Premiere Pro doesn't have a color management system.
 
Todd Kopriva said:
Premiere Pro doesn't have a color management system.
Click to expand...

That explains it!!! I've only just gotten the Production Premium 5.5 installed on Win7 (had been working with FCP7), so I'm a bit new to the feature set.

I use Eyeon's Fusion for compositing (and assorted 3D programs that support a linear workflow), so I try to work linear with EXRs whenever possible.

Hopefully in 6.0 for Premiere - but very glad that AE (and Photoshop,etc. ) all have color management - and very, very glad to be getting away from Apple and moving forward with Adobe products.

Not all the pieces are there, but ... I see Adobe actually listen to users and respond to their needs, which was the opposite of what Apple did with FCPX.
 
Hi Todd,

thanks for unlighting us :)

actually, there is still something particular to AE that I don't get... For exemple, I'd like to work in Rec709, in a Linearize Working Space (as the documentation stipulates it should give better results in blending, fusion, and motion blur)...

If I turn OFF color management, I'm working/compositing with wrong (not accurate) display right? Then if I turn ON color management only for renders, my result may differe from what what I was looking at when RAM previewing, right?

So I guess the idea is to work with the color management left ON... But even on a big system configuration, recent Mac Pro, lots of RAM, it's almoast impossible to have a fluid workflow (the machine doesn't respond fast enought, and is not able to play real time on the RAM previews )...

So what is the approach here? ... Swithcing ON/OFF as we're working? ... Leaving it ON when checking blending, motion blur, fusion, and when using the color picker, and swithing it back on OFF when needing fluid response from the computer?

Or am I missing something?

thanks in advance

Julien
 
Thanks Les,

that confirms and resumes (and even enlightens) what I was reading around…. I really like the guys at FXguideTV/PhD, they are really good at explaining tricky concepts with simple words (especially for people like me who didn't grow up with English as primary language).

But that doesn't really answers my particular question about AE… which is: when am I supposed to turn ON color management? Knowing that it drains so much resources from my computer that it almost makes previews impossibles…

So I guess, my concerns are: working in linear working space sounds terrific, but is it really practical if I'm not in some high-end computing facility?
 
Julien - I re-listened to that podcast again last nite. If you combine that with some visuals, it may help you get a better feel for when you might need it. This thread http://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php?p=931173 has some videos and pdfs that show the effects of using a linear workflow.

It's really going to affect lighting and reflections a lot.

One thing that concerns me, as I move to Adobe for use with RED, that was mentioned in that podcast, is whether some effects already have some terrible 'fixes' built in to compensate for using math in the wrong workspace - where it doesn't work.

Somehow, I'd bet that Adobe's will be aware if you have set it to linear. But, I also own several of Red Giant's suites, and I wonder if they realize when they are being used in a linear workflow, or if they have built-in messed up math that tries to compensate for 'normal' users - and thus would mess things up when used in linear?

The bottom line is, you can get good results without it, but it's going to be more difficult in some ways.

If it's a drain on your system, and you can't get around that by using a different video card, then it may be impractical for you at this time.

It's not like people didn't create good art before linear became more popular in the last few years (mostly in composting and with graphic programs like 3ds, Lightwave, etc.) It's only just recently you wouldn't get a blank stare when you mentioned linear.

But, if you're willing to deal with the learning curve (I'm definitely only part way up it myself), linear is the future - as it's the only place where the math works.
 
I don't recommend jumping back and forth between using color management and not using it when you are doing color-specific work, but it is generally not a problem to turn it off (as well as work at a lower color bit depth) when doing non-color-specific things, like animating.

However, I am surprised that you're seeing so much difference in performance between using color management and not using it. What are your hardware specs?

BTW, here's a page full of resources about speeding up After Effects.
 
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