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"Affordable" S35 Glass

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Thomas Church

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Now that we're moving into S35 cameras that people can actually own, how long can we expect until manufacturers start producing S35 lenses at SLR prices? (1K-2K range)

Nikon would be pretty smart to enter this market, since they don't have any kind of motion market to protect.

And of course, these would configured from the get go for cinema use.

I just wonder what's going to happen to Cooke, Arri, etc, if this happens.
 
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It may already be overcrowded - Sony announced a set of 3 PL lenses for the F3 for about $7K.

And Nikon tried it with TV lenses in the late 80s and 90s and abandoned it due to not enough volume.
 
I think that we're in a different moment now.

In about three or four years pretty much every regular video shooter on the planet is going to own a camera with an S35 sensor and interchangeable lenses.
 
I just don't see real cinema lenses ever being priced new at $1-2K. RPPs at $3500 are about as close as it's going to get, and even those do not have as many focus marks as we'd like. The problem is that to have truly accurate focus marks you need to build the lenses by hand and then either mark the barrels by hand or use a very complex but accurate coding system for the focus rings. There really is no automated way to get the tolerances as tight as they need to be at this point. I wouldn't put it past Nikon's capability to do it, just that the R&D does not support the rather small market for indie cinema.
 
Thomas Church said:
I think that we're in a different moment now.

In about three or four years pretty much every regular video shooter on the planet is going to own a camera with an S35 sensor and interchangeable lenses.
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We are almost there now. a T2i is now $704 from B&H. 18MP stills and HD video so it is as cheap as home use camcorder.

But that doesn't mean they are going to spend even $1000 on a prime lens, much less $2000, when - besides the kit lenses and such - there are cheap Nikon, Contax, Pentax, etc. manual lenses that give sufficient feel and quality for most simple, low budget video stuff, demo shorts, and music videos - and very few will ever actually need accurate focus scales, matte boxes, follow focus, etc.
 
Evin Grant said:
I just don't see real cinema lenses ever being priced new at $1-2K. RPPs at $3500 are about as close as it's going to get, and even those do not have as many focus marks as we'd like. The problem is that to have truly accurate focus marks you need to build the lenses by hand and then either mark the barrels by hand or use a very complex but accurate coding system for the focus rings. There really is no automated way to get the tolerances as tight as they need to be at this point. I wouldn't put it past Nikon's capability to do it, just that the R&D does not support the rather small market for indie cinema.
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Years ago at IBC Geoffrey Chappell of Cooke Optics told me that each individual Cooke lens for the focus distance marks is measured by hands that has the highest accuracy, all that process it takes long time and that's also one of reason that high end cine optics are expensive.

Then I asked him about Zeiss and he couldn't say anything about that how they doing things but then he showed me some of Bavarian Movie Product Awards that Cooke have got...with very English Style and sense of (also humor) talking...
 
People are talking around the point...

I don't think that anyone expects a Cooke 5/i or a master prime for $1000, so talking about them in this context is silly.

What I expect are lenses the sort of fall between the current Zeiss CP.2 and Z series primes.

The SLR primes are already very nice for film work... but they could use a helping hand.

The CP.2 lenses are phenomenal, but too expensive for most people.

So, what's in between? Right now you can get the Duclos modified ZF series lenses.

So, the better question is when manufacturers will see that avenue.. when can I get Zeiss prime lenses that are the SLR ZF/ZE series, but with cine modifications?

As far as precision of focus markings... there is a new workflow emerging.

A lot of first AC's are "popping in" using the zoom or pixel to pixel modes of their cameras and getting critical focus. Then marking the follow focus. Finally, they take the focal distance for the log from the lens marking. No tape measure involved.

If that is an acceptable working style, then you don't need hand assembled and marked ultra precise lenses.
 
The Zeiss ZF lenses are the closest thing we have to cine lenses at SLR prices. What I'd love to see is the ZF line have a consistent max aperture of f1.4 across the board, including an 18mm f1.4. Heck, I'd settle for them being a consistent f2.0 across the whole line!

Anything more sophisticated than that, and you end up in regular cine lens pricing, for the many reasons stated above.

EDIT: Alexander beat me to it. :)
 
Good post Thomas, Could anybody please post links to say different price options for the S35 say 1-3K range 3K +
It would be good to have all the options in the one post so people could see whats out there from PL to Cine lenses !

Thanks
 
These are interesting comments. I always thought it was the quality of the glass, coatings and design to get as low a T as reasonably possible in the price point, in that order, were governing factors. Some of you seem to be saying ease of marking focus is more important.

Regardless, there seems to be a lot of whining going on. If you want cheap, there are Lomo lenses that come up on eBay for less than $1,000 all the time. These are real cinema lenses that were used to produce some of the greatest Communist propaganda films ever created. Great Polish cinematographers used them. They have history behind them. And some Redusers swear by them.

My point is that there are alternatives. I'm slowly developing a collection of Standard Speeds 2.1's, all <$3,000 each. They work well, are S35 and weigh half of what Red primes weigh.
 
I would absolutely love a 50-150mm LOMO anamorphic lens, but I can't seem to find a reasonable one anywhere... Even ebay (although to be fair, I'm only checking ebay.ca, not .com.) There are a lot of those lomo made Foton f3.5 37-140s (which is even a better range) for super cheap, but I heard they were complete crap in terms of useability (and 3.5 is too slow.)
 
Stephen Strangways said:
I can't find any single mention on Sony's site that the primes are PL mount... if they are the proprietary F3 mount, it makes that package a lot less attractive.
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From the Studio Daily Story:

"... That, combined with the availability of a low-cost PL lens kit, which includes 35/50/85mm T2.0 fixed focal length lenses,..."

Not very ambiguous.

From the Sony website:

PMW-F3 Technical Specifications:

"Supplied Accessories
PL lens mount adapter
PL lens kit (35mm, 50mm, 85mm lenses) (edit added: NOT CP.2 per mitch gross above)
Stereo microphone
Windscreen
IR remote
Shoulder Strap
CD-ROM (XDCAM Browser, SxS device driver software, PDF Operation Manual)
Operation Manual
Warranty Card"

Not very ambiguous, or well hidden.

I find it strange that people are trying to turn this "proprietary" mount into some sort of conspiracy when:

A: the PL mount adapter looks very slick, with what appears be support for both Cooke and Arri style lens data pins (edit confirmed by Mitch above) and

B: the "proprietary" portion looks to be similar to an IMS type but with the addition of implementation of the necessary electronic contacts to allow the use of servo zoom lenses, possibly with motorized iris (and autoiris?) and focus, and possibly autofocus capability with AF lenses. (PS added: the camera already has a Fuji/Sony style zoom rocker on it)

C: I wouldn't be surprised if they worked with Fujinon to create this "proprietary" mount, which had to be somewhat "proprietary" since nothing like this has existed previously in S35/APS-C size, and that this "proprietary" mount will become a defacto standard available to other manufacturers also as has happened previously in the video world and with the "proprietary" Arri PL mount in the cine world. The availability of a B4-style servo zoom (presumably substantially cheaper than existing cine zooms based on much higher projected sales) for S35/APS-C cine cameras will be a major boon for many of us that would like to shoot S35 sensors in the much more common EFP/Documentary style productions (vs. narrative style cine/commercial shoots).

D: Even if it is proprietary, how is it worse than the announced "proprietary" electronic lenses from RED.

I know it seems like I have been defending everybody but RED lately. I really don't like being in this position, since I was a very early adopter and consistent RED1 evangelist (responsible for a pretty good number of sales) and have been accepting of the aggravations and limitations that have come with this ride because I, more than most, know the difficulties of developing product and starting a new company. But I also don't like the "if we are good, everybody else must be shit/us vs. them" attitude that seems to be pretty pervasive on this site.

Bottom line, I don't won't to be part of a cult... I want to shoot with superhigh resolution cameras because that's more important in my particular situation than some of the other things Sony offers ... and see RED grow, both in leading edge technology AND in all the other aspects that create a solid, long term, responsive and responsible business.

Attitude works both ways. I haven't liked some of the things Sony has done over the years (but really nothing about this F3 product intro bothers me), so I've often looked in other directions. Sony is huge, so hard to see that ship changing very fast. RED is smart, small, and nimble and I anticipate great things from them. "Edgy" promotion can get you noticed and I understand it initially, but I think it is possible to respect and coexist with your competitors so I dislike some of the attitudes I see promoted/tolerated on this site - IMHO the IDEAL is somewhere between Sony and RED.
 
Nils J. Nesse said:
I believe it´s bundled with the Zeiss CP.2 primes in PL mount, 35, 50 ,85mm.

Creativevideo pre-order page confirms that.
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Look at Creative Video's page again. They offer two kits: The F3L (body only) bundled with three CP.2 lenses or the F3K, which comes with three lenses from Sony. Sony is not packaging the CP.2 lenses.

The primes will be in PL mount. The camera comes with a PL mount adapter included that has both the Cooke i/data as well as the ARRI LDS. The new F3 mount is there to accept mount adapters to various standards, as well as lenses designed directly for this mount.
 
For cheap brilliant glass you can't beat Contax Zeiss, 1.4 from 35mm to 85mm, going to f2 on the 100mm and 135mm. So not perfect but apparently the same glass as the ZE/ZF, some of the lenses have long throws too. So for that market, the low end pro as I would call it, old glass seems to be best. Don't know how these stack against the Lomo's in image quality but at least the Lomo's are built for cine. Modding the Contax Zeiss is not that difficult though.
 
J. P. Sendall said:
For cheap brilliant glass you can't beat Contax Zeiss, 1.4 from 35mm to 85mm, going to f2 on the 100mm and 135mm. So not perfect but apparently the same glass as the ZE/ZF, some of the lenses have long throws too. So for that market, the low end pro as I would call it, old glass seems to be best. Don't know how these stack against the Lomo's in image quality but at least the Lomo's are built for cine. Modding the Contax Zeiss is not that difficult though.
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That's a pretty good point; Contax can be had for super cheap if you're patient ($200-400 depending on the lens)...

Lomos, on the other hand, I'm having a hard time finding a consistent anamorphic set. I think I could get by with three: a wider (18, 22, or even 35), a 50mm, and a longer (75 or 85).. t3s, but ebay is throwing me curve balls... And what's with the 'It's like OCT-18/19, but slightly different mount' comments on ebay?
 
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