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ADVICE: What lens(es) to get for $20k

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adrian vedder

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Hey guys! I'm about to buy my first "serious" lens(es) and my budget is about 20k. I mainly use a scarlet, sometimes an EPIC and on the near future we're getting a sony F5. So far we've gone the rental route or, if the project is not big enough, the EF route, using a variety of L lenses and the occasional Zeiss ZF2.

I've thought of everything from buying those new chinese lenses that resemble the CP2s to trying to find and older nice small set of standard speeds.

After reading the SALT results (quite a piece of work there from Evin and everyone else involved), and a lot (a LOT) of reading, I think the Angie Optimo Rouge 30-80 might be the best choice. It's a bit slow (T2.8), but everyone says it's crazy good, and for the money I think a zoom might be a better option than ending up with just a pair of primes. 30-80 is not the most flexible setup in the universe, but I think in the short future I could buy the Tokina Duclos 11-16 (or order one and by the time i'm next in queue I'm sure I'd have saved enough to buy it) and be well covered. I don't intend to stay with one lens forever, but I do want to have something that is good enough to avoid renting in small-medium productions.

I also think it's a lens interesting enough to rent from time to time.

So, what would you buy?
 
You could probably pick up a full set of RPP's + a Duclos Mod 11-16mm for $20k. The RPP's are a great bargain, sharp wide open (t1.9), great contrast and great bokeh. Down side is they are heavier and on the large size. If your planning on renting out whatever lenses or lens you buy make sure to get something that is in demand. Otherwise just buy lenses to use personally and don't worry about the rentals.

If your looking to cover larger than s35 frame sizes then you have the CP.2, Canon Cine Primes, or regular ff lenses designed for stills and have them cinevised.

Just my $.02
 
Thanks Matt! really appreciate the feedback. the RPP's have been in my head too, mainly against the new sony set of 6 primes. However, as you mention, renting might be a factor here too. I want to use the lens(es) mainly for my stuff, but I want to be able to rent it for sure. I'm not sure that either the RPP's nor the Sony's would be rental material.

Where I live (mexico) there's not a lot of options and mostly everyone has either master or ultra primes, and a variety of arris overall, since it's one of the very few companies to have official distribution in the country (you can find the vari primes and pretty much any other arri/zeiss stuff if you dig deep enough). You also could come up with the occasional cooke and there is one single company offering angies, and that's pretty much it.

In that light I do think that being able to come up with something not as common, yet commercial enough, would be a good idea. Still, the main use of this glass would be my own productions. Maybe renting it once or twice a month.

We are also trying to offer production services to foreign companies that might want to come down here for whatever reason (cheaper, locations, the script requires it, etc.), but those guys pretty much always go for the master primes. A real world zoom might be a good addition to that, but I'm really not sure about it (hence the thread).

Considering the RPP's, and knowing they are heavy... are they heavy enough as to completely discourage steadicam work? (I've never even seen an RPP before)

I travel a lot to LA and New York, so where to buy the lens wouldn't be a problem.
 
adrian vedder said:
Thanks Matt! really appreciate the feedback. the RPP's have been in my head too, mainly against the new sony set of 6 primes. However, as you mention, renting might be a factor here too. I want to use the lens(es) mainly for my stuff, but I want to be able to rent it for sure. I'm not sure that either the RPP's nor the Sony's would be rental material.

Where I live (mexico) there's not a lot of options and mostly everyone has either master or ultra primes, and a variety of arris overall, since it's one of the very few companies to have official distribution in the country (you can find the vari primes and pretty much any other arri/zeiss stuff if you dig deep enough). You also could come up with the occasional cooke and there is one single company offering angies, and that's pretty much it.

In that light I do think that being able to come up with something not as common, yet commercial enough, would be a good idea. Still, the main use of this glass would be my own productions. Maybe renting it once or twice a month.

We are also trying to offer production services to foreign companies that might want to come down here for whatever reason (cheaper, locations, the script requires it, etc.), but those guys pretty much always go for the master primes. A real world zoom might be a good addition to that, but I'm really not sure about it (hence the thread).

Considering the RPP's, and knowing they are heavy... are they heavy enough as to completely discourage steadicam work? (I've never even seen an RPP before)

I travel a lot to LA and New York, so where to buy the lens wouldn't be a problem.
Click to expand...

RPP's aren't crazy heavy and if you put Masters on a steadicam then RPP's will be fine. They aren't as heavy as some MP's and I see steadicam op's flying way heavier setups.

RPP's and or Zeiss CP.2's are good if your looking to rent to the lower end clients who don't have the budgets for higher end glass and still require cinema primes. The downside like you have said is with a zoom like the Angie, the speed is a hindrance to a lot of those lower end projects unless they are daylight. Zeiss CP.2's do well here for low end glass rentals. RPP's aren't as popular because they aren't a well know lens brand with 100 years of reputation. I would personally choose RPP's over CP.2's any day, but I'm speaking purely of rental demand. I'm not sure there will ever be rental demand for the Sony lenses coming out. I think they are purely targeted to owner operators.

Canon cine lenses aren't much of an option since they are EF mount only.
 
I have the Ruby 14-24 t2.8 in PL and really enjoy it.. 8.5k used 12k new

You could go the new compact super speeds at t1.5 at around 5k per lens in 35mm, 50mm, 85mm in PL.

Or the new canon cine glass from 14mm t3.1, 24mm t1.5, 50mm t1.3, 85mm t1.3, 135mm t2.2 in EF at around 5k as well.
 
Brian would you pick those 3 super speeds against one angie 30-80? those 3 you mentioned plus maybe the ducloss 11-16?
 
Within your budget, I would recommend taking a look at a set of Zeiss CP.2 lenses (15, 21, 28, 35, 50, 85) or (15, 25, 35, 50, 85). They offer full frame coverage, compact design, 114mm matching diameter, excellent mechanics, 25 and up offer T2.1, and swappable lens mounts. Zeiss is on a roll expanding the line with a 135, 70-200, and 28-80 zoom. I'm sure a lightweight wide angle zoom will be on the horizon soon.
 
Darryl I appreciate the offer a lot! I'll take it into account and will keep reading about the standards (pretty awesome lenses for all i've read).

That being said, it seems like you guys really love the CP2s. Have you tried them and fell in love? Or is just simply a matter of it seems too good to let it pass? Also, why get the CP2s when from all I read the ZFs are exactly the same thing? (after a visit to Ducloss or similar). Cause that was actually my biggest nah for those lenses, that I could get the ZFs for 1/3 of the price.
 
adrian vedder said:
Brian would you pick those 3 super speeds against one angie 30-80? those 3 you mentioned plus maybe the ducloss 11-16?
Click to expand...

Personally yes (new super speeds).. but it depends.

Super Speed CP2s
Possitives) better f stops around t1.5.. no lens breathing with primes
Negatives) changing lenses everytime you want a different shot takes time, gotta worry about keeping things clean

Angie 30-80
Possitives) No lenses to change or dust to worry about getting on sensor, when you want a shot you zoom in or zoom out.
Negatives) slower f stop (i think its at t2.8) and Possible breathing when racking focus since its a zoom. All zooms i've worked with breath and even though its minor, something to think about.


On a side note I wouldn't go with the Dulcos.. I would go with this new manufactur making the Tokine 11-16. Can be found on this site http://fjsinternational.com/lenses.html

They also rehouse a canon 70-200mm which looks amazing. you might wanna check it out.
 
haha I check with them every day. I do think the 1.5 vs 2.8 is the biggest advantage for the super speeds vs the angie. Super shallow depth of field does look awesome when you can justify using it. The fact of being able to build a bigger set in the future is a big plus too. I saw the Canon 70-200 (for 6k right?) and felt tempted to ask.
Why can't someone just sell me a set of Master Primes at 20k and be done with it!? hehe
Thanks for jumping in Brian! I mean it.
 
No problem. I can sell you one Master Prime :)

I have the 35mm in like new condition used on one shoot only. In original box. USD $19k. No waiting, ready to ship.
 

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Brian Anderson said:
On a side note I wouldn't go with the Dulcos.. I would go with this new manufactur making the Tokine 11-16. Can be found on this site http://fjsinternational.com/lenses.html

They also rehouse a canon 70-200mm which looks amazing. you might wanna check it out.
Click to expand...

Brian, why?
The Chinese one is a more complete rehouse but probably the duclos is more serviceable...
Isn't it a better long term investment too??
 
Haha and that would be exactly it right Pawel? If you had only one prime lens in the world this would be it. Doesn't get any better.
Sadly I do need more than one lens (or one focal lenght). But save it for me for a couple of years! Just let me make my first feature (almost there! 1.5MM raised from a total of 2MM) and I'll use the profits to buy nothin but cinema equipment!
 
Tommaso Alvisi said:
Brian, why?
The Chinese one is a more complete rehouse but probably the duclos is more serviceable...
Isn't it a better long term investment too??
Click to expand...

To be honest with you guys I've read nothing but praise for Duclos rehousing. And I don't know him and had never heard of him before my PL hunting. But over the web people seem to worship his work. Have you even seen those chinese copies of the CP2s? They look (lenses themselves, not images coming from them) identical to the original CP2s. Except they don't have engraved the Zeiss letters.

However I just don't feel confident enough to make such a big investment in lenses no one has even seen nor tried.

A bunch of messages have come to my inbox account offering different kind of advice (and lenses) and I really appreciate it. RED people get crap often from non RED users (And I must admit I'm more of a Sony boy than RED) but this is hands down the best community forum for video professionals on the web. And I've done nothing but read forum posts all day long for the past 3 weeks)

So far a bunch of interesting things, but no one has been able to talk me out of the angie. Still, do you guys even rent an angie when you go to a rental house?
 
adrian, the 30-80 is gorgeous!
keep also in mind that late angies breath much less than the average zoom...
if you are a zoom guy...and if your target clients are too...take it!
especially if they always pick master primes and you can't afford those! so buy the angies combo (30-80 first) plus the duclos...
when you need primes you could always have an agreement with a rental house to exchange days of your angies for the masters/ultras! ;)
Admittedly for the price of the zooms trio I'd go Ultras or MiniS4/i (depending on your desired look)...maybe buyin' 3 focal length first and complete the set as you go!
With Cookes you get their look and cam based focusing, with Ultras you got 1+ stop more and consistent size.
The Cookes breathes less than Ultras and they are clean but kinder on skin! BUT they're T2.8 like the zoom...
I'm a prime guy... ;)
 
On the subject of the RPPs, has there been any explanation for why RED's stock of them is so patchy? I remember they started dropping of the site a while back, and thought there must have been a refresh (perhaps the electronic lens program Jim mentioned), but nothing has happened. Now it seems you can't by a set of RPPs new.
 
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