Advice needed: Transferring HDCAM SR tapes to HDD (REVISITED)...

[Dave Draper]

You may be overthinking this.

I have that feeling, too. It's just hard for us to not get obsessed over details, as it has taken nearly ten years to even be in a financial position to have these digital masters created. Now we want it to be as perfect as is technologically possible.

Just do a 5-minute test and look at the pictures and see if they're within correctable range.

The more affordable of the two post houses we have quotes from has offered to send us a two minute sample clip of the transfers during the encoding process, so that we may check everything is going in the right direction before they proceed any further. They can do the capture via either the BlackMagic DeckLink HD Extreme 3D, or the AJA Kona 3G. I haven't yet confirmed what deck they'll be using.

If you capture a new master via a Deckling or Kona card with single or dual link HD-SDI then you are getting the cleanest possible signal out of the deck and the cleanest possible digitized recording.

Would you explain the difference between capturing these HDCAM SR tapes via single link and dual link SDI? Why would you opt for one over the other? What are the advantages / disadvantages?

The reason I suggest a 10-bit uncompressed codec, from BMD, AJA, APPLE or otherwise, is that you can then create DPX sequences from that format if needs be without a loss of quality but (DPX) giving you a "multiplatform" solution or a windows option as it were.

From those 1920x1080 uncompressed 10 bit masters you can edit directly or you can transcode smaller files from the master and relink later.

That part, I do understand.

If you feed the SDI out of the deck through a capture card you are attaining the best quality you possibly can.

So worrying over what colour space the capture card is limited to, such as Rec.709, is irrelevant, or... ?

Apologies for all the questions, but we just want to make sure we're all on the same wavelength and semi-understand what we're talking about and are being told.

Why not hire a cheaper HDCam deck? You could go for cheaper ones such as the SONY J-H3 and then also hire an ingest card (or buy one then sell it on). It'll work out around the same price - or maybe a lot cheaper (depends on the deal I'd imagine), but the advantage is that you can experiment yourself - and there won't be arguments about new costs /billing if it all has to be done again.

I'm thinking you could probably get a good deal on a week's hire of a J-H3 but, if the hire is really cheap, you could get your footage - see what you need, test how far you can correct it (before it breaks) and then re-digitise as many times as you like (like getting off-line tapes then only conforming what you need in the on-line).

So, rather than paying a single cost and leaving it in the Post house's hands (who don't seem to be that confident anyway), do it this way, you'll save some money and give yourself enough time to do the transfer in a myriad of ways and flavours.

Just a thought

And a very good thought, at that.

We'd actually enquired around various rental houses, circa 2008-2009, to see whether they had any HDCAM decks to hire, but couldn't find anywhere that had any available, and no one seemed to be able to suggest anywhere that would. We were eventually persuaded that even if we did manage to get ahold of one, that none of us would know how to use the thing, so probably wouldn't end up with what we were after, anyway.

Now that one of the post houses we're in talks with has offered to send us a sample clip of the job -- if we go with them -- perhaps that would be the next best thing.

 

[Andy White]

There are lots of London based HDCam decks for hire... and loads of ways to record the signal (you could even try modern HD recorders - just pump the signal via HD-SDI).

Personally, I'd be inclined to rent bits and experiment - but I go way back to using U-matic/Beta/BetaSP/DigiBeta then HDCam etc - so I like tape decks (life was simpler back then!) - but I guess I enjoy 'tinkering'

However, if you're getting test stuff for fee, there's no harm in seeing the results.

 

[Simon Dunne]

Capturing a job like this in Rec 709 would be a disaster. I had a bit of a row with the engineers at BM regarding their firmware, and although they offered to make a test firmware with full video range, it was easier for me to move over to matrox.

If captured in Rec 709, all whites will be clipped to 235. Highlights in clouds for example, would be merged together with no hope of a clean grade.

This is in no way 'over thinking' the capture process, it's the only way images should be captured!!! You want the full image from the tape, so the full video signal (aka illegal range), not a rec 709 copy.

Get the post house to confirm the aja captures at rec709 only, i thought it was full range? They should have a signal generator in house, so get them to throw up a colour chart with a sub black. pump that illegal signal into the aja and see what the waveform says in premiere or avid when captured. if it clips that sub back to 0, then it's clamped to rec709.

 

[David Battistella]

The dual link capture on the KONA should get you the wider gamut (or RGB) capture you are looking for, provided the signal recorded to the HDCAM tape was recorded in this color space, but there is no way to understand that. But the post house should also have the appropriate monitoring that allows one to view the wider gamut P3 color spaces, etc. via HD-SDI

If the tapes were recorded in RGB or RGB HQ then you would need to capture that signal to get the full spectrum. The dual link HDSDI on the KONA should be able to capture this signal.

If you look at the D20 brochure, you can see it has DATA mode or HD mode. HD mode outputs a standard SMTPE signal

http://www.aoassocies.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/arri_d20_brochure_en.pdf

"D-20 outputs standard SmPte 292m / 372m HDtV video signal "

So you might not even be dealing with wide gamut images at all if the signal was recorded to HDCAM tapes. If it was a data capture that was transferred correctly to HDCAM tapes. IE data capture, dual link transfer to HD CAM SR 444 RGB then there is a chance you are not dealing with REC 709 images, but you probably are.

 

[Dave Draper]

Many thanks for the input, guys.

OK, so a little update...

We finally got to look at our tapes at a very helpful post house today, on a Sony SRW-5500 and SRW-5000 deck. We have now confirmed that we shot the footage at 25fps, 880Mbit/s, 4:4:4.

Whilst watching the footage live from the tapes, we noticed on the BlackMagic and AJA scopes that the levels don't go beyond the legal range, and during shots of high / low luminance, they clip at the ceiling and / or floor, respectively.

Is it possible, that during principal photography, the D-20 itself (which was a prototype at the time), or whatever HDCAM deck we captured to, recorded only within the legal video range, despite capturing at 880Mbit/s 4:4:4? And if not, why do the scopes never show any of the levels venturing into illegal territory, and instead, when they get too high, they clip at the ceiling and / or floor?

Also, we now have two sample clips; one uncompressed 10bit AVI captured via the BlackMagic DeckLink HD Extreme 3D, and one ProRes 4444 MOV captured via the AJA Kona 3G.

 

[Michael J Brennan]

Why not hire a cheaper HDCam deck? You could go for cheaper ones such as the SONY J-H3

JH3 does not playback SR format

Many thanks for the input, guys.

OK, so a little update...

We finally got to look at our tapes at a very helpful post house today, on a Sony SRW-5500 and SRW-5000 deck. We have now confirmed that we shot the footage at 25fps, 880Mbit/s, 4:4:4.

Whilst watching the footage live from the tapes, we noticed on the BlackMagic and AJA scopes that the levels don't go beyond the legal range, and during shots of high / low luminance, they clip at the ceiling and / or floor, respectively.

Is it possible, that during principal photography, the D-20 itself (which was a prototype at the time), or whatever HDCAM deck we captured to, recorded only within the legal video range, despite capturing at 880Mbit/s 4:4:4?

Highly likely.
Most sony edit decks have user adjustable settings.
Also it is possible that when you digitised the output, the deck was not setup properly.
BTW, the downside of using a log curve that clamps the signal at 80% is that you are not using the full 10bit output of the camera.

mike brennan

 

[Marc Wielage]

Is it possible, that during principal photography, the D-20 itself (which was a prototype at the time), or whatever HDCAM deck we captured to, recorded only within the legal video range, despite capturing at 880Mbit/s 4:4:4? And if not, why do the scopes never show any of the levels venturing into illegal territory, and instead, when they get too high, they clip at the ceiling and / or floor?

It's possible. Does the picture look good?​ If so, then there's no problem.

 

[Simon Dunne]

Whilst watching the footage live from the tapes, we noticed on the BlackMagic and AJA scopes that the levels don't go beyond the legal range, and during shots of high / low luminance, they clip at the ceiling and / or floor, respectively.

So it's 4:4:4....sounds like it's RGB. Make sure you capture in an RGB codec and not YUV. On the back of the deck, there will be numerous HD-SDI outputs. Plug a waveform in their and compare that scope with the scopes on the AJA/BM, then you'll know 100% if your signal is getting clamped or not. Make sure the AJA is set to capture RGB full range (1024?)....it's an option on the firmware from memory.

 

[Dave Draper]

Highly likely.
Most sony edit decks have user adjustable settings.
Also it is possible that when you digitised the output, the deck was not setup properly.
BTW, the downside of using a log curve that clamps the signal at 80% is that you are not using the full 10bit output of the camera.

Interesting. Taken note.

It's possible. Does the picture look good?​ If so, then there's no problem.

It looks good, sure.

So it's 4:4:4....sounds like it's RGB. Make sure you capture in an RGB codec and not YUV. On the back of the deck, there will be numerous HD-SDI outputs. Plug a waveform in their and compare that scope with the scopes on the AJA/BM, then you'll know 100% if your signal is getting clamped or not. Make sure the AJA is set to capture RGB full range (1024?)....it's an option on the firmware from memory.

Is this anything to do with "Data Levels 0 - 1023" that I see in the Clip Attributes in Resolve?

 

[JayEmm]

If anyone is interested I have an HDCAM SRW-1 recorder available for sale - which would have been the exact type used to record the footage. It would be a very cost effective way of playing it back

 

[Dave Draper]

If anyone is interested I have an HDCAM SRW-1 recorder available for sale - which would have been the exact type used to record the footage. It would be a very cost effective way of playing it back

I'll give you £10 for it.

 

[Dave Draper]

OK, we've now seen the scopes from the signal coming directly out of the deck, and have the BM and AJA scopes to compare it to. They all appear identical, clamped at 100 and 0, respectively.

Please see a few examples below (photos were taken on an iPhone):

AJA Out...

BlackMagic Out...

Deck Direct...

 

[Dave Draper]

Are we good to go for digitising? Or is there anything else we should be aware of / need to check, etc?

 

[Aaron McLane]

What's wrong with you? This may not be the place to get the kind of help you need.

 

[Dave Draper]

What's wrong with you? This may not be the place to get the kind of help you need.

Not quite sure how to respond to such a -- seemingly -- impudent post. But why, exactly, may this not be the place to get the kind of help we need? So far, all of the advice we have received has been absolutely stellar, and those who have contributed constructively will certainly be acknowledged on this project.

 

[David Battistella]

Looks good.