Advice For a Future Red Owner

[J. Bernard Vallon]

The only time you should buy gear is if by buying it, you can make it pay for itself outright in 1 to 3 years. If you can, you should definitely buy it. If you can't you should definitely not buy it.

Good luck, but in your case I'd consider renting, or work with a DP who owns one, he/she is probably a better DP than you will learn to be by the time you want to start shooting.

Be honest with yourself. If 35k is a lot of money for this project, the cost of the rest of the film will hurt a lot more.

 

[Jay_C]

Thanks for the responses guys.

Although I'm definitely no professional, I do work as a marketing/documentarian for a video game company, and I do all of my own cinematography and editing, so I do have some experience. In fact, I recently shot, directed, scored and edited a very successful Microsoft XBox 360 viral marketing campaign called The Goblin Man of Norway. You can check it out below:

http://norwegianfilmcommittee.org/en/media.html

This was shot on the Panasonic HVX200, which I know is pretty different from the Red camera. However, in terms of actual lighting, I do have some experience and I am very confident in my abilities. The decision to go Red comes only from having done a lot of work with the HVX (and some 16mm) and deciding to broaden my abilities as a cinematographer and director.

My logic is as follows: if I can buy the camera and engage in multiple projects, that would be great. I already have a couple in the works. However, if these films don't work out and I can't justify keeping the camera, I can resell it at a loss that would equal or be lesser than renting for the same amount of time I would be using it.

I'm confident in my abilities, I'm just not confident in my business sense.

 

[Joel Kaye]

My logic is as follows: if I can buy the camera and engage in multiple projects, that would be great. I already have a couple in the works. However, if these films don't work out and I can't justify keeping the camera, I can resell it at a loss that would equal or be lesser than renting for the same amount of time I would be using it.

I think we'll see A LOT of people buy a RED, use it for 6 months and sell it. That's the old 16mm filmmaking strategy. And it's a pretty good one. Much cheaper than renting and you get enough time with the camera to figure it out. (You will need to figure it out for a while)

 

[David Morgan]

I'm seeing a lot of things that I worry about here; a lot of who's good enough to use the camera. Now I'm not advocating that anyone run out and buy a Red One the moment they think they want to make a film, but I'm not a DP and I am very new to the field and I think this camera is a good way to help me express my visions.

I'm not gambling my son's college tutition or taking out a 2nd morgatage on my house, but I am spending a lot of money and time to bring myself up to speed. No, I don't have a plan in place the will recoup my money in 3 years on the camera...hell, I'm not even looking at renting my gear out.

What I do have is a group of people who believe in me and my skills, I have a plan for a number of shorts, leading to features, and the grit to be a focal point for a number of talented, but somewhat meandering group of actors, special effects artists, and others.

That is why I choose to go red. True some of the higher end equipment I can only dream about, but that's where rentals come in for me. I do, however, have the tools now to create something that I can look at and judge solely by my talent and not format. I can, on any given day, pick up my camera and go shoot, try to make some art, and not have to worry about rental costs, or rely on others to get the basics of my productions done.

So that's my .02, and I'll get off my soapbox racer now.

 

[Steve Sherrick]

the beauty of red is that it levels the playing field a bit. It won't make you a great DP but if you can afford to buy it, and are dedicated to learning it inside and out, then you will have a very serious tool to work with. And quite honestly if you are happy with the work you produce, who's to say you're not a DP or filmmaker. I think where it gets tricky is when you are looking for financial assistance to purchase the camera. That's when the business side takes over and you really have to have a good strategy going into this. Jay, if you can have a solid business plan in place, one with attainable goals, it's worth a shot at presenting to the banks. It can't hurt to try.

 

[A. Clint Litton]

Wow, was really enthralled by the Goblin Man of Norway stuff. Pretty convincing, loved the score, thought it was shot well...seemed like you wore many hats, and yet the end result didn't suffer from it in any way.

Regarding the purchase of a Red and the subsequent gear to follow, it's a toss-up. You could potentially find someone who has made this initial investment that is willing to rent their package and work with you on the first project for far less than you'd be laying out for a full kit of your own, which would likely leave far more funding for so many of the other important expenses, most notably what you are putting in front of the lens. The camera is but one of the pieces to the puzzle, and no matter how incredible an image the camera can produce, it would be a shame to put something to the tune of 50k in only one aspect, possibly leaving very little funding for everything else.

That said, it's clear that you can craft a story, and if there's enough work between your contacts in the video gaming industry, it could be a good business move, though I wonder if you couldn't accomplish a result that is (dare I say) good enough for those market needs with a lesser camera (something under 7-8k), at which point you could put more money into lighting and grip equipment, a solid post-production setup, etc...a full production outfit.

Not an easy decision. I chose to invest in a package because I want to develop as a cinematographer, and I didn't want to take the old-fashioned path of starting at the bottom (camera-PA, loader, 2nd AC, 1st AC, operator, DP), where it could be a decade or more before I'm shooting. I had already shot a fair amount in a number of formats and figured that the only way I would continue to develop was if I owned something that would enable me to shoot whenever I wanted; something that I could rent but also something that could get me onto productions in positions that I wouldn't otherwise get (i.e. camera assistant, operator), from which I could learn from other cinematographers and observe how they work/light, while occasionally getting hired on as DP, myself. It was a career choice.

Good luck with making your decision!

 

[Vladimir Eugene]

I hadn't heard about the Goblin man before, but was very intrigued by it, good production.

Next summer- so many possibilities probably by April. Much more than there are today. You'll most likely have the Red line up RedOne/Epic/Scarlet Plus others.

In addition to the two great great options already presented here, I'm sure there will be other ones that will be more of a collaborative approach.

What I'm saying is If I didn't already own a camera packages, and was prepping for a next summer feature. I would nail down all the other aspects involved, plan on a RedOne shoot, but then revisit the camera/post question early next year when the other options/price/performance details are available.

vlad

 

[Paul Merritt]

Food For Thought

Food For Thought

Hi Jay_C,

I read your post yesterday and I sympathize. I am in a similar position but pursuing a slightly different angle on things.
I read this article in the NY Times today and I couldn't help but think about your predicament in regards to acquiring a loan. Though I do not know if this is something you will want to pursue it might be worth checking out considering the current credit freeze.

In Credit Crisis, Some Turn to Online Peers for Cash
By Alan B. Krueger

Alan B. Krueger is an economist at Princeton.
While conventional credit markets have frozen, imperiling the entire economy, one nontraditional lending source has become hotter: peer-to-peer lending.
P2p lending is a way to link lenders to borrowers without intermediation by a bank, much the way that eBay matches buyers and sellers of goods without a store in between. For example, at the nation’s largest p2p lending site, Prosper.com, those seeking to borrow funds list how much they desire, the maximum interest rate they will pay and some optional personal information about themselves, such as a photograph. They also must submit to a credit check. Lenders specify the minimum interest rate they will be willing to accept. The Web site matches lenders to borrowers to clear the market, when there are enough willing lenders to fulfill a loan request. The Web site also charges a fee of 2 to 3 percent of the value of the loan from the borrower, and 1 percent of the outstanding value of the loan from the lender each year.
Other popular p2p lending sites, which may work somewhat differently, include Lending Club, Loanio, VirginMoney and Zopa.

Historically, many would-be p2p borrowers have not been able to get a loan. The loans in p2p lending typically are not collateralized. Default rates are high. As a result, interest rates are also high.
Growth in p2p lending has been hampered by a problem known as adverse selection. The sites tend to attract high-risk borrowers who are unable to obtain credit at lower rates from traditional sources like a bank. Fear of lending to lemons, in turn, discourages potential lenders from agreeing to finance a loan.
That may be changing.
Devin Pope, an economist at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania who studies p2p lending, told me that at Prosper the “fraction of funded loans going to individuals with higher credit scores has increased over the last year.” Interestingly, the total number of loan applications did not change. But better risks seem to be seeking credit though this nonconventional source. As a result, the volume of loans financed at Prosper increased by 41 percent from April 2008 to September 2008 compared with the preceding six months. (See the graph below.)

In other words, the number of loans agreed to on the p2p lending site began to expand around the start of the current credit crisis. This suggests that the crisis led some of traditional banks’ customers to seek nontraditional lending sources.
While the online p2p lending industry is still young, a few economists have already done some fascinating research into its workings.
Professor Pope and Justin Sydnor of Case Western Reserve University, for example, have studied the efficiency of p2p lending. In particular, they analyzed the likelihood that blacks, older people and women would have their loan requests fulfilled on the Prosper.com site. They find a significant racial disparity: blacks are 25 to 35 percent less likely to receive financing than whites. Those over age 60 are also less likely to have their loan requests financed, and women are more likely than men to have their requests financed.
They further find that blacks who do receive loans pay an interest rate that is 60 to 80 basis points higher than that paid by whites with comparable credit ratings. Whether these results are an indication that lenders discriminate against blacks is complicated, however, because the rate of return lenders earn on loans to black borrowers is lower, on average, than the return they earn on loans to white borrowers because of racial differences in default rates on loans obtained through Prosper.com, even among those with similar credit ratings.
For those older than 60, the interest rate charged to borrowers is higher and the rate of return earned by lenders on those loans is also higher than for younger borrowers, consistent with discrimination against older borrowers.
The market seems to discriminate in favor of women, as their requests are more likely to be financed — and at lower interest rates and lower returns for lenders — than men’s.
P2p lending is unlikely to replace brick and mortar banks any time soon. The volume of traffic is still modest and interest rates are high, averaging around 10 percent for “prime” funded loans on Prosper.com this summer, and reaching 18 percent for “near prime” loans. Still, the shake-out in the financial crisis is likely to increase the popularity of p2p lending and provide at least some floor if credit markets should continue to freeze up.

I hope that this helps you,

Paul

 

[Justin Chin]

Lots of good advice here. I just left a long standing career in the video game industry (20 years) to go freelance with a Red Camera in tow. For me, I just saved up and got some seed funding from a friend (I shot his short film years back and will shoot his feature in the future). Personally, I don't plan on making any money on rental or work for several months, so I planned on other freelance gigs to support me (crew work, art, game design). Meanwhile, I'll have the camera and will be shooting spec shoots to add to my "Red" portfolio.

In reality the Red is just a tool. It's a tool that you should consider an investment. That investment is towards your film(s) and your personal education and experience. Both of which is in valuable. You should also consider all the funds at your disposal for your production next year. How much money do you have for it, how much money do you expect from outside investors. How does all that figure into your equipment needs and the needs of your film.

Perhaps a good question to ask yourself (if you haven't already) is, are you a cinematographer, or are you a director? A cinematographer invests in his equipment and knowledge. A director invests in his storytelling - and that usually includes the flexibility to make decisions that are separate from the needs (and costs) of equipment.

Nowadays, with seemingly "affordable" equipment we have a new class, "filmmaker". They own, operate and develop their films. But the Red is a different ball game. The question should be made, do you spend 50k on your gear or your film? You might think that one serves the other but that would be a mistake. That is the very definition of opportunity cost.

 

[Jay_C]

A lot of great comments here. Thanks for taking the time guys!

Still a lot to think about, but definitely some encouraging and realistic advice.