Adobe will rule all. Trust me

[Richard Goodwin]

That article is from March. If you try the beta the video support is very limited. The main utility is to be able to ingest both your images and videos from a DSLR in one shot and keep them in one catalog. But, beyond that the app does not even play the video back. On the mac it launches quick time. You cannot color correct or alter the video.

 

[jake blackstone]

After Effects does work. If you're fast with curves and work in 32 bit - it does a lot on jobs where a colorist is out-of-budget

That is a perfect example, when colorist should be in the budget. Using curves for color grading, in 32 bit or not, is one of the most noise inducing operations. Find a way to use a colorist or at least use proper tools for the job.

 

[ericyoung]

That is a perfect example, when colorist should be in the budget. Using curves for color grading, in 32 bit or not, is one of the most noise inducing operations. Find a way to use a colorist or at least use proper tools for the job.

Can you elaborate on why curves are particularly noise inducing and why the alternatives (which are they?) are better? Just wanting to know more about the reasons/maths.

 

[Eren Ozkural]

I've graded lots of shows from promos to a feature in AE.

I use Magic Bullet Colorista, hue & sat, exposure, lots of masks and yes, curves as need be.

It's not fast. The speed of the RAM previews are a little off putting for a client supervised grade but if you know the program well enough there is no limit to waht you can achieve in AE vis a vis grading.

 

[jake blackstone]

I've graded lots of shows from promos to a feature in AE.

I use Magic Bullet Colorista, hue & sat, exposure, lots of masks and yes, curves as need be.

It's not fast. The speed of the RAM previews are a little off putting for a client supervised grade but if you know the program well enough there is no limit to waht you can achieve in AE vis a vis grading.

Yes you can grade in AE and one of my clients even used AE for editing, I'm not kidding. Heck, I just used Nucoda myself for editing and grading a video shot on 5D...
Is it possible to grade with AE? Yes. Is it practical? IMHO, based on real life client supervised session environment, not really.

 

[Eren Ozkural]

Editing in AE? Dear good Lord...just because you can ingest bleach doesn't mean that you should eat it...

Yes, grading in AE for client supervised high turnover/high profile projects in AE isn't the best idea. Not because of a lack of functionality. It's the speed...or lack there of.

However, for projects on a budget or indie features it's a very valid route.

Yes you can grade in AE and one of my clients even used AE for editing, I'm not kidding. Heck, I just used Nucoda myself for editing and grading a video shot on 5D...
Is it possible to grade with AE? Yes. Is it practical? IMHO, based on real life client supervised session environment, not really.

 

[jake blackstone]

Can you elaborate on why curves are particularly noise inducing and why the alternatives (which are they?) are better? Just wanting to know more about the reasons/maths.

I've noticed, that the first thing peopler reach for in something like Redcine are RGB curves. I can't even remember, when I had used them myself for color grading. Before you introduce such a drastic color adjustment, look into using Brightness/Contrast or if not available, at least Levels. Those two modifiers create the most linear and gentle adjustments, akin to optical color timing with color wheel. With Brightness/Contrast modifier all three RGB channels move in unison.
Correction, I just checked AE and Brightness/Contrast modifier isn't the same, as in standard color grading system. So, that leaves the Levels filter. Using something like RGB or HSL curves will immediately introduce non linear color response, almost certainly precluding proper color matching in highs/lowlight and skin tones across different scenes. Use RGB curves sparingly and only, when nothing else will do.
The idea of color grading is not just to create a LOOK, but to be able to carry it over the whole project and not to introduce more noise in the process.
Said all that, personally, I can't imagine grading anything without a proper panel and with a limited set of grading tools in AE.

 

[jake blackstone]

Yes, grading in AE for client supervised high turnover/high profile projects in AE isn't the best idea. Not because of a lack of functionality. It's the speed...or lack there of.

However, for projects on a budget or indie features it's a very valid route.

Yes, I have heard of indy features done in AE, but for life of me I can't understand why. Why not just use Color? That is what it's designed for. How do you even match the shots in AE? Other than just one frame grab for comparison, there is no real provision to do it...

 

[ericyoung]

I've noticed, that the first thing peopler reach for in something like Redcine are RGB curves...Before you introduce such a drastic color adjustment, look into using Brightness/Contrast or if not available, at least Levels. Those two modifiers create the most linear and gentle adjustments, akin to optical color timing with color wheel. With Brightness/Contrast modifier all three RGB channels move in unison... Using something like RGB or HSL curves will immediately introduce non linear color response, almost certainly precluding proper color matching in highs/lowlight and skin tones across different scenes...Said all that, personally, I can't imagine grading anything without a proper panel and with a limited set of grading tools in AE.

So, curves aren't really inherently noisier, just that it's easy to get the colour channels out of unison and linearity. Surely, grading should generally be the last step after everything else is locked down, so curves can be used if done sensibly and with knowledge of what you are actually doing when you manipulate them.

I wanted clarification as I use curves all the time with stills in Photoshop to adjust gamma, brightness and contrast and never had a problem with excess noise or getting the desired look, but I agree using them to tweak colour is not the best tool! :smile:

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

I had an experience shooting & grading a short on both AE and PPro..
I really find PPro's three-way color corrector a very nice grading tool when you combine with AE capabilities.. I finished editing and using dynamic link I made every shot an AE comp.. in AE I used colorista for making multiple vignettes and masks to manipulate shots lighting.. my material was based on mostly on hvx200.. that is really noisy especially when you use cinelike D profile to push DR to the max.. I used AE's remove grain plug-in to reduce noise.. So, AE for lighting and noise reduction.. then jump to PPro for color manipulation..
the only problem was that the system went very slow using this workflow.. but, that was CS4.. when I tried this workflow now on CS5..I was shocked that it turned to be realltime most of the time.. and the remove grain is now much much faster about 10x faster..
the beauty about this workflow is that there is no limitations in creating anything you think of.. even if you like to do some VFX, AE will carry on with you.. sometimes it helped fixing continuity problems..

I worked with color a lot.. and really find that this workflow is much better and much smoother and produces much better results..
I don't know what systems could offer you all these capabilities with the look to the price..

the only thing I wonder about is.. how a project like this will run when you do it on R3Ds.. I mean a big project.. I think I'll be trying this soon.. any experiences?

 

[conrad gaunt]

It would be great to see some kind of raw video format from Adobe similar to what that have for stills that you could color grade in lightroom. This may be the beginning and would really put Adobe on top if they did it right.

Like adobe DNG format?

 

[conrad gaunt]

I've noticed, that the first thing peopler reach for in something like Redcine are RGB curves. I can't even remember, when I had used them myself for color grading. Before you introduce such a drastic color adjustment, look into using Brightness/Contrast or if not available, at least Levels. Those two modifiers create the most linear and gentle adjustments, akin to optical color timing with color wheel. With Brightness/Contrast modifier all three RGB channels move in unison.
Correction, I just checked AE and Brightness/Contrast modifier isn't the same, as in standard color grading system. So, that leaves the Levels filter. Using something like RGB or HSL curves will immediately introduce non linear color response, almost certainly precluding proper color matching in highs/lowlight and skin tones across different scenes. Use RGB curves sparingly and only, when nothing else will do.
The idea of color grading is not just to create a LOOK, but to be able to carry it over the whole project and not to introduce more noise in the process.
Said all that, personally, I can't imagine grading anything without a proper panel and with a limited set of grading tools in AE.

I agree that curves can be over used (at the expense of bright/contrast/levels), but an RGB curve also modifies RGB channels in unison (although FLUT may override this somewhat, haven't tested that in a geeky way).
Whatever gain method you use you will bring up noise. Curves are very useful if used right. I expect to use them more and more since the HVS isn't linear, unlike the low contrast "packed" data coming from the sensor, which ultimately needs to be viewed by the human visual system, and they are VERY useful. I personally prefer less contrast than what seems fashionable amongst people i know

 

[jake blackstone]

So, curves aren't really inherently noisier, just that it's easy to get the colour channels out of unison and linearity. Surely, grading should generally be the last step after everything else is locked down, so curves can be used if done sensibly and with knowledge of what you are actually doing when you manipulate them.

I wanted clarification as I use curves all the time with stills in Photoshop to adjust gamma, brightness and contrast and never had a problem with excess noise or getting the desired look, but I agree using them to tweak colour is not the best tool! :smile:

No, curves are inherently more noise inducing. With Curves you're changing individual gammas of each channel. With a still in Photoshop you can get away with way more, than with video. It's very simple. Just adjust any frame of video and it looks good, but the moment you play it back you can see the increased noise. I use curves for stills in Photoshop all the time myself but never for video, if I can avoid it.

 

[ericyoung]

No, curves are inherently more noise inducing. With Curves you're changing individual gammas of each channel. With a still in Photoshop you can get away with way more, than with video. It's very simple. Just adjust any frame of video and it looks good, but the moment you play it back you can see the increased noise. I use curves for stills in Photoshop all the time myself but never for video, if I can avoid it.

But if you are using other tools to boost or reduce gain in the colour channels at different levels to grade colour, isn't that effectively introducing a curve adjustment in individual colour channels? How come other tools don't have the same effect on noise? Which specific tools are you thinking of?

BTW, it's great to be able to ask questions of experienced colourists! :biggrin:

 

[jake blackstone]

But if you are using other tools to boost or reduce gain in the colour channels at different levels to grade colour, isn't that effectively introducing a curve adjustment in individual colour channels? How come other tools don't have the same effect on noise? Which specific tools are you thinking of?

BTW, it's great to be able to ask questions of experienced colourists! :biggrin:

Remember, modifier effects are cumulative, so if you continue to add layers the noise level will continue to increase, so you better off keeping picture as noise free as possible. It is difficult for me discuss grading in AE, as I rarely use it for color adjustments. Proper color grading systems have more appropriate tools specifically designed for color grading, which I'm much more familiar with. Brightness/Contrast, or as it is also known as Film Grade, in true color grading devices is the proper tool for use in color grading. As I already have said, Brightness/Contrast or Film Grade is very similar to color timing the film and is the most linear and mild form of grading. It take little getting used to in order to use this color modifier, but it is the tool with ultimate power used by majority of professional colorists.

 

[Stuart Hooper]

Has anyone mentioned yet that Aperture 3 allows for importing and organizing videos? Sounds like this Lightroom addition might be same thing...I haven't seen anything yet suggesting that we'll be able to grade footage in Lightroom.

 

[shashbugu]

We have all had to grade in AE at one time or another when a colorist was not in the budget. But seriously with Apple color, Magic bullet looks, Colorista, and XML i/o available there is absolutely no need to do this anymore. The real challenge is working with RED footage. Hence the wait for Davinci Resolve, Which uses the GPU you currently have installed in your Mac.

My magic ball tells me Adobe has something up its sleeve, and if Davinci $995 is successful, more companies like Scratch, speed-grade, etc will release lite versions. Personally I think the gift we have been given is the Mecury engine, from this point on the is no limit to what Adobe can do.