ADOBE Stepped up....who's next?

[Hayhurst]

The credit belongs to Adobe. They are a very valuable partner in all of this and they are far from done with RED support!

You're too kind Rob.

It's a partnership thing --- RED brings a lot of magic to the table, and have been awesome about giving us access so we can help where we can.

I can say we've got some of our best folk working on this stuff --- we're not looking to do a shallow "bolt on to the SDK" thing. RED users deserve a smooth-as-butter workflow, and from our side, it's magic to have a RAW workflow that we can work intimately with.

'nuff said

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

Do you not see how Final Cut Studio drives your hardware sales to some degree?

remember apple is a software company!!
their profit comes from selling software not hardware...

 

[Clint Johnson]

remember apple is a software company!!
their profit comes from selling software not hardware...

Apple is a hardware company that locks its software to its hardware and then markets the hell out of both to drive sales to their hardware. If they were a software company they would make their software available for the platform that 90% of the population use.

Now if you say that the software couldn't run on Windows then you're a solid drinker of the marketing coolaid. Apple is a master of form over substance and while the OS has some advantages and some disadvantages, it is mostly a wash between the two... it is marketing and PR where Apple has the clear advantage.

Oh, the software and hardware is good and for the most part you aren't going to be behind the curve... but the cult is just a little too elitist and fascist for my liking.

 

[dalen johnson]

Apple has some of the most well laid out programs, (pro apps and OS) that are on the market.
Dont like Avid, hated Adobe (notice past tense)...Apple just seemed to pretty much get the flow and look of a program. (Like Discreet...but a bit pricey.)

But...

Adobe has a full suite of software from web, print, to video.
(All tools for the artist/producer.)
Apple is missing some points in their software lineup - Web, Print, & a Photoshop...(So an artist/producers toolkit is left with pieces missing.)

Also, with CS4, for the first time Adobe has impressed me with Premiere which I have pretty much viewed as a joke.
Part of this is the gui between apps...as well as some nicely added features for pros.

Apple is silent...you know it happens the day Steve wants you to know.
"The great 'god' has delivered". Sorry Steve, you have great products, but not everyone worships you.
So if you dont give some breadcrumbs as to where your product is going, you will find that adobe is giving enough incentive to switch.
(Steve may be caught in his own reality distortion field...oh well.)

Yes you could say the breadcrumb is that they are making snow leopard - but truth be told, Steve is in love with the consumer market now...even the new macbook 'pros' tell that tale. (the new advanced media enthusiast laptop, which is a stop gap for the pro.)

He could just say, "dude, we are waiting because all of our pro apps are being rewritten in cocao, and it will blow you away."
Instead it seems he is under the impression that keeping this a secret, or not talking about development (or none development) of apps, will impress us the day he says: "And let me show you what we've been working on...rewriting the pro apps."

Whoopee, who cares. Nothing to have kept a secret about.
"Oh and one more thing..." - "you get a pink toothbrush with every order to match your ipod."
Yes Im being facetious. Apple has cool stuff, but they hype things up that dont need the hype, and it gets old.

Just lay out a path and tell us whats up. Anyway, Adobe has a good line up.
Funny thing is you know with them its like every 13 months they release stuff. Back when I traded their stock the former CEO made a point of saying they have a 13 month product cycle. (I know in there recently it didnt keep up with that.) But again, transparency. There is a time and place for everything, and its like beating a dead horse with a stick, but Apple - communicate...jump off your pedestal which thinks people will wait for you.

Peace

dAlen

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Why would any company making high end color correction software want to sell it for 4 figures?

1. Because 4000 RED ONE cameras produce material which goes into number of production houses few times larger than number of REDs.

2. Because the will be five figure quantity of RED cameras in near future. The same principle from #1 applies here.


I don't see high end software companies making that leap, because that would make their five and especially six figure customers really pissed off.
Options: Adobe, Apple with fixed Color, new companies.

What's the incentive? Most of these companies are selling systems, not just software. It's more than a plug and play situation.

1. The whole new market is out there.

2. There is a huge number of creative people who can take color grading to the next level.

What companies are currently selling is not important. Adapting to the current market needs is. Systems can be built independently. Hardware is powerful enough. Prices are always dependent on quantities.

Even with a freeish app like Color, how many people have mastered it yet? The others aren't going to be less complex.

People can join few shots on the timeline and think they've mastered editing.
Shoot a nice scenery and pretend to be DP's.
Trying to be a colorist just because you have the tool is a bit more trickier than that.

As an exaggerated example apply your point to the 3D apps world.

There are affordable apps like Colorista and Color Finesse and I suspect there will be more.

I was talking about real color grading, not advanced color correction.



Are you suggesting that there is no demand for this or that the proper grading should be left only for high end studios ?

 

[Lucas Wilson]

1. Because 4000 RED ONE cameras produce material which goes into number of production houses few times larger than number of REDs.

This is a common misconception. The same production companies get most of the RED jobs. So, out of 500 cameras in Los Angeles (That is NOT an actual number, just making one up) there are really only 20 or 30 post production facilities that do 99% of the color and finishing of RED projects.

What companies are currently selling is not important. Adapting to the current market needs is. Systems can be built independently. Hardware is powerful enough. Prices are always dependent on quantities.

Hardware is not powerful enough. For realtime delivery of R3D at high resolution, there are only a very few companies building reliable systems. Systems can be built independently, but very few people relatively speaking have the skills necessary to build high-end systems with the performance specs necessary for longform color and finishing.

I believe your perception of the color grading market is a bit unrealistic.

Look at this forum... About 6 months ago, I posted a bit of a challenge, saying, "ok, as an exercise, if we released SCRATCH for a price under US$10K, who would buy it?" Do you know how many people raised their hands? Six.

Once a company like ASSIMILATE (or Quantel, or Iridas, or any of the other standard cast of characters) lowers their prices drastically, the average customer will say, "Well, that's only a few thousand away from FCS2, and FCS2 includes Color. So why am I buying this other application?" And, if we lower our software price, that doesn't change the fact that the hardware required to do consistent, reliable, realtime longform color and output at high resolution is still over $10,000.

The bottom line is that not a big enough segment of the market believe that color grading is a distinct step in post-production that is worth an additional several thousand dollars.

Believe me - I *wish* you were right!!! That would mean an easy path to a huge profitability increase for our company and many others!

But unfortunately, the market dynamics just don't exist for a "low-cost" high-end dedicated color grading system that can successfully compete and win against Apple.

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Mike Harrington]

I read ya Luki...

it's a marketing choice, and you guys should know your market better then us...

but you'll have to agree that eventually, the price point will lower as the numbers rise...

I remember when maya was $50,000...then over about 5 years dropped to $2000....the high end stuff as I see it sold a low number of seats because
1. the market is relatively small
2. the cost of hardware to run an uncompressed DI suite was prohibitive

both of those reasons are diminishing with Red coming on(and competition soon enough) and with the advance of cineform and Redcode the proprietary hardware....at least the storage side is also become cheaper

I would buy scratch in a heartbeat if I had a project to warrent it(which may happen in the next few months) as I think you guys made a smaller price point revolution in the high end DI market

but where I am right now, as with thousands of other users, is an inbetween..
as as you know...there is no real inbetween

if Assimilate had a chopped down version of scratch grading as an adobe plugin.....i woud gladly pay 4 figures just for that....no compositing ect

of course that is where you guys would have to decide the market potential

 

[Kyle Mallory]

I wish I could tell you I was making the same kind of progress as Adobe with regard to native R3D support for Piranha, but being committed to Linux, I'm the bastard, orphaned child, along with Autodesk, and a select few others.

I've heard rumblings from Deanan though, that my time may be coming sooner than I'm currently expecting.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

The same production companies get most of the RED jobs. So, out of 500 cameras in Los Angeles (That is NOT an actual number, just making one up) there are really only 20 or 30 post production facilities that do 99% of the color and finishing of RED projects.

And why do you think this is ?

What is Red's market penetration so far ? How many people still think it's no good ? How long has Red been out ?
How many production companies can afford having their own post ? And why is that, again ?

How does LA represent global market anyway ?

Hardware is not powerful enough.

What is happening with GPU processing ?

Cuda ? GT206 ?
ATI Stream ? RV770 ? 10.12.08.
Open CL ?

What then ?

For realtime delivery of R3D at high resolution, there are only a very few companies building reliable systems. Systems can be built independently, but very few people relatively speaking have the skills necessary to build high-end systems with the performance specs necessary for longform color and finishing.

There's your argument for your market advantage. Any segment.

I believe your perception of the color grading market is a bit unrealistic.

No.

I believe you are watching what is "now". Well not even "now" but "yesterday".
Let alone "tomorrow".

No disrespect meant.

Look at this forum... About 6 months ago, I posted a bit of a challenge, saying, "ok, as an exercise, if we released SCRATCH for a price under US$10K, who would buy it?" Do you know how many people raised their hands? Six.

I'm sorry, I missed that. If I had seen that you'd have seven.

I think you are basing your guestimate on a crude example, on one place and in one moment in fast changing times.

Also, the same way I missed your post you probably missed the numerous posts where users wished for affordable grading tools. Which actually work.

Once a company like ASSIMILATE (or Quantel, or Iridas, or any of the other standard cast of characters) lowers their prices drastically, the average customer will say, "Well, that's only a few thousand away from FCS2, and FCS2 includes Color. So why am I buying this other application?"

That's when quality of the app, features, stability, customer care and individual and creative preferences take effect. Is this something that would bother or fit Assimilate ?

And, if we lower our software price, that doesn't change the fact that the hardware required to do consistent, reliable, realtime longform color and output at high resolution is still over $10,000.

So ?

The bottom line is that not a big enough segment of the market believe that color grading is a distinct step in post-production that is worth an additional several thousand dollars.

Among other factors market segment is dependent on:

- post related camera and footage quantity
- education of camera and software users, production companies

Do you think this will rise or fall ?

Even if the market segment wasn't bit enough, which it is...your own partner RED is enlarging your market at the speed of light. Many times more in the segment you are not in, than in the one you are. Currently.
Food for thought.

Believe me - I *wish* you were right!!! That would mean an easy path to a huge profitability increase for our company and many others!

Yes I am wrong. There is not a 4000 thousand RED's out there with grade worthy material and there won't be tens of thousands more soon and tens of thousands of smaller productions will not want to have color grading done in house. Apple Color will be the only tool ever.

No disrespect.

But unfortunately, the market dynamics just don't exist for a "low-cost" high-end dedicated color grading system that can successfully compete and win against Apple.

Are you winning currently ? Do you have to win ?


I appreciate your posts Luki and I've been loving to learn from them through the last two years. I also think you are a type of guy to have a kick ass time with.

In this case though, I think you either don't see or don't want to see.

 

[planet e]

I'm sorry, I missed that. If I had seen that you'd have seven.

Eight.

 

[Gunleik Groven]

I think there'd been a couple of more, if you'd have taken that poll after the 1000 first cams was delivered and people had had time to familiarize themselves with the workflow options...

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

I just spoke with a commercial color correction facility in Toronto that have two Pablos.

They confirmed that R3D is native in Pablo now.

 

[Jeff Brue]

The Nucoda system also has native support now, granted it has to cache it all but 16 bit RGB that can be scaled up is nice.

As far as color grading material, I wonder if anyone noticed the implications of red's latest series of announcements such as redcode 225. Combine that large of a data rate with the current cpu/desktop limitation and you'll realize that for the pro world red just put the market safely into the hands of the Scratches/Nucodas/Pablos/ Baselights of the world.

In regards to FCP, well they're just on a different product release schedule. I'm sure its not like they wouldn't like to answer. Still to retiterate Premiere has something like 2% of the market and the vast majority of editors still recieve their footage on a videotape. Adobe will have to keep up this pace of technical innovation for several years to gain market share of Apple and Avid.

That being said I rather liked Stu Maschwitz's idea of combining AE and Premiere to make a flame like product, it will be those kind of content creation tools that will push adobe forward.

 

[Chris Parker]

big news dylan. big news. i suspect 2009 will be the year of the 'We are now native with RED files' announcements from almost ALL post software companies. I have harped on this for a while now, as I believe it is the final nail in the coffin of most other formats, for a while at least. It will be the determining factor in what sets RED on a wild ride as the LEADING camera manufacturer in the world, from the prosumer and up market....save for maybe the SUPER high end, who will undoubtedly use whatever magic the new ARRI/Dalsa combo will deliver....

And Luki, I totally see your point about anything under 10K being likened to 'free' apps like Color. That is saying something though, as there will be more and more jobs being graded on cheaper systems, like Color. Just as more and more high end jobs are now cut on Final Cut, a cheaper alternative to AVID.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

I think you are basing your guestimate on a crude example, on one place and in one moment in fast changing times.

No - I am certainly not basing how we do business on Reduser. It's just a useful example.

Yes I am wrong. There is not a 4000 thousand RED's out there with grade worthy material and there won't be tens of thousands more soon and tens of thousands of smaller productions will not want to have color grading done in house. Apple Color will be the only tool ever.

Look at it another way. How many tens of thousands of film cameras are out there? How long have they been out there generating "grade worthy material?" How many hundreds of thousands of broadcast cameras and Varicams, HDCAMs, etc, etc.?

You'd think that, damn, with all that material out there - certainly as soon as color grading applications hit a "sweet spot," then certainly tens of thousands of people will dive for them!

Has not happened. And there have been several attempts at fairly low-cost professional color tools. Bottom line still is - only the high-end market still views color grading as a valid and distinct part of the workflow that is worth a significant amount of money to purchase a tool that focuses on that.

When you take the broad approach, RED is still a small camera company, and a very small part of the market that defines cinematography. There are already thousands of production and post companies... with other digital cameras... and they have not bought distinct color grading tools, because they simply don't see the value in it for what they do. RED has not really changed that market dynamic significantly.

That's also why SCRATCH does a lot of other things besides just color. If we focused on being "just" a color tool, we would have gone out of business a long time ago.

Lucas

 

[Dylan Macleod CSC]

Not to sidetrack this thread too much...but further to Luki's points...lets remember that when you circumvent the "high end" color grading system you are missing out on one very important thing.

Not R3D support, not "realtime 4K" or any other technical reason you can muster.

It is the creative PERSON who is turning the knobs.

I'd love to see a "high end" colorist on a Scratch system. They would likely do things that would blow people away...not because of the capabilities of the gear, but because of their TALENT.

Everyone thinks they are a colorist these days!

 

[Jeff Brue]

well put Lucas.

 

[Gavin Greenwalt]

When grading is desireable by the masses it'll be affordable for the masses. It's also somewhat correllated to processing horsepower. The R&D that goes into a grading suite is largely performance related not algorithm. The math behind a lut is pretty elementary. It's executing that on a 4k plate in a creative timeframe that's the killer.

It's much like fluid simulation. Reelflow doesn't exactly have any super proprietary algorithms for their simulations. It's packaging it in something that's fast and stable that sells seats.

If those thousands of RED users were clamouring for Scratch at an affordable price. I bet Luki would be more than happy to lower his prices to septuple his sales.

The workflow is still too challenging for "one suite studios". Demand just isn't there yet.

 

[Mike Harrington]

There are already thousands of production and post companies... with other digital cameras... and they have not bought distinct color grading tools, because they simply don't see the value in it for what they do. RED has not really changed that market dynamic significantly.

good point....

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

Look at it another way. How many tens of thousands of film cameras are out there? How long have they been out there generating "grade worthy material?" How many hundreds of thousands of broadcast cameras and Varicams, HDCAMs, etc, etc.?

Which segment are those film cameras in ? Budgets ?

Broadcast cameras today heavily compress the image. What then ? Betacam, Digibeta ?

High enough budgets will always go to the proven expensive posts.

It's the smaller productions and indies who will create the new market.

You'd think that, damn, with all that material out there - certainly as soon as color grading applications hit a "sweet spot," then certainly tens of thousands of people will dive for them!

Dive for what ? At which price ?

Has not happened. And there have been several attempts at fairly low-cost professional color tools.

How good ? Fast ? Reliable ? Feature rich ? How strong was hardware then ? How known was grading then ?

And the most importantly....at which period in time ?

Bottom line still is - only the high-end market still views color grading as a valid and distinct part of the workflow that is worth a significant amount of money to purchase a tool that focuses on that.

> because only the high end market can justify the cost of investment > because the systems cost significant amount of money

This is going in circles.

I wonder who can brake that circle...:shiftyph34r:

When you take the broad approach, RED is still a small camera company, and a very small part of the market that defines cinematography.

When ? Yesterday ? Today?

Cinematography is not the only market you should be taking into consideration anyway, IMO.

There are already thousands of production and post companies... with other digital cameras...

They are used to getting the picture on the field by in-camera settings. How many of them shoot RAW ?

and they have not bought distinct color grading tools, because they simply don't see the value in it for what they do.

> because the systems cost significant amount of money

My point exactly.

Do you think the potential customers will buy the expensive tools and accept them first,
or the tools will have to be affordable to be accepted ?

RED has not really changed that market dynamic significantly.

So...you are under the impression that it won't...I guess.



I'm sorry we disagree on this.