Adobe Premiere CS6!

[Subhadip Sen]

Is Adobe giving us a 10 bit preview monitor out now? Tired of 8 bit monitoring...i had forgotten to ever ask about that....can't do any 10bit monitoring via any I/O boxes on Adobe...like in FCP---so i'd assume that was a given for cs6 yes?

Premiere Pro has output 10-bit from Quadro GPUs on Windows since 2010. This is not available on OS X since the GDI is restricted to 8-bit, hence you need an add-on card like Decklink. Good news is that these will get full support with CS6 through Mercury Transmit.

On Windows, pretty much every DirectX application is capable of drawing 10-bit even through GeForce cards. Unfortunately due to the multi-platform nature of Adobe Creative Suite, 10-bit output is only supported through OpenGL, which requires Quadro. AMD Radeon GPUs are 10-bit capable thru OpenGL, but I don't think they are officially supported and the lack of CUDA makes them otherwise ill-suited for Premiere Pro anyway. However, one could argue that since OS X cannot do 10-bit through the GPU anyway, and it is a Windows exclusive feature, why not just use DirectX?

 

[Uli Plank]

Sorry if I contradict, but human vision is far more complex. You can easily spot the limitations of 8 bit color for certain ranges. I've encountered the problem myself, when I thought I was going too far while grading – I saw some banding – only to find out it was the display. After moving to 10 bit, the issue was gone. It's very important to be able to spot an issue and not be fooled into thinking there is one…

The HP Dreamcolor is still a very nice monitor with true 10 bit. Unfortunately it needs RGB, not YUV, and most of the I/O-acrds or boxes don't support that. Bummer.

Now that Mercury Transmit won't slow down Premire any more, it would be great to see more manufacturers supporting progressive RGB 10 bit. From the specs it seems AJA Io XT does via HDMI, but I haven't tested that.

 

[Subhadip Sen]

Sorry if I contradict, but human vision is far more complex.

Absolutely, and it is due to the non-proportionate positioning of the S, M and L cones; apparently over 6 million of the human eyes' perceived colors (out of 10 million) are between Red and Green, which is only 30% of the visible frequency range. Certainly 10 bit will be beneficial to colours in between red and green, particularly the yellow region. Also equally useless for colours in the cyan region due to the wide gap between S (blue) and M (green) cones or in low light where rods come into play. But it is very important to distinguish between acquisition, computation, display, observation and perception. For the former two, even 16-bit will offer benefits, for computation even 64-bit. The last two will probably depend from person to person. Do consider that a vast majority of consumer displays are 6-bit + FRC, deliverable formats are 8-bit and there is cure for banding.

 

[Craig Parkes]

....this is not my field of course, but can you state with 100% certainty your case is correct and we are not viewing or playing files back at full rez or the chosen rez you choose?

No, because I don't know your system specs or how you have your suite setup. You very well may be getting full res playback, but if your delivery is HD video for broadcast finishing this probably doesn't help you, as what you WANT to be able to see is a realtime hardware downconvert with 10bit output at 1920 x 1080, because that matches your deliverable. This is a big ask of a system, it's a high end requirement, which is why the common solution is to go to an intermediate codec first that is at that resolution and bit depth rather than relying on system performance to achieve it in realtime.

It also doesn't help me ascertain what the system performance is like when you say you have realtime 5K playback on your system, and someone else says the same thing, but their system is obviously lower spec'd and they're having to display at lower res with lower quality debayer. It helps the two of you though, because you cn get on with the creative bit, which is important, but I work mostly at the beginning (getting things in) and the end (getting things out) and generally things are lots more stressful at the getting things out stage, so unless the hardware acceleration leaves me with the best quality scaling and no compromises, I woul generally rather spend the time and hard drive space transcoding at the start of the process then time rendering at the end of the process. This may be counter intuitive, because doing the latter should technically save you more time, but in reality the creative process will always suck up the time given to to the point that delivery is right on deadline, and having stressful delivery can be avoided, and a stressful delivery will be noticed by clients, whereas a creative editor will always feel they could have used a few more days.

Ths is not a failure on Adobe's behalf (apart from the question mark about passing 10bit video to third party cards, which for broadcast finishing is an important issue to be transparent about, because 8bit doesn't cut it), it is just a pitfall of users relying on hardware acceleration that takes advantage of RED's scaling properties in the codec, because it introduces variables based on system settings and specs that make it hard to know how quickly you can deliver at the end of the process, when broadcast deadlines are looming.

 

[David Cherniack]

NOPE--Aja, Matrox etc....all allow a flow through solution,but only 8 bit being sent out of Premier....this took me AGES to dig up and get to the bottom of....but i was told this COULD be in the new CS 6. FCP sends a 10bit out deep in a preference setup where you choose 10bit or 8bit.

It's up to Adobe to allow 10bit monitoring as i understand it. And you would expect this to be up on the list to get done

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying but if the inference is that you can't monitor 10 bit out of PrPro, it's incorrect. You can output 10 bits via HDSDI through Matrox, AJA, and BM.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

I'm a fan of Premiere Pro's background engine, and I am the first to admit that the interactivity of the timeline with cpu intensive codecs is impressive...

But the problem with this is that it's NOT actually full res 5K playback, it is playing back 5K files at some proxy level, which adjusts depending on your machines capability.

Which is great for creative editing with a smooth workflow, but isn't very helpful if you are needing to technically check the shots or work in an environment where the timeline you are working on has to go out to tape etc.

In these situations, a transcoded workflow is still better, because you are seeing what you will see in the deliverable on the timeline, and if you are transcoding anyway then the advantage of Premiere's realtime performance doesn't necessarily make up for it's slightly less mature toolset in terms of highly efficient offline editing.

It's kind of ironic that through the development of both systems, that Final Cut 7 was EOL'd when it sat almost perfectly in between Avid (which has moved closer to Final Cut in terms of interface and accessing file based formats, while retaining it's superior media management centric ideology) and Premiere (Where final cut wouldn't work with EVERY format natively, but it's quicktime centric workflow and OSX integrated media management ideology made it more flexible than both, while retaining the Walled garden of Quicktime to ensure that you could guarantee, within Final Cut at least, accurate hardware monitoring through third party devices).

I guess what I am saying is that Premiere Pro's more powerful playback engine doesn't negate the technical and practical reasons for many editors (especially in the broadcast world) why transcoding up front is a good idea... Which is something Avid understands in it's AMA footage in then transcode workflow.

This leaves us in a situation wherein while there used to be two mature mainstream solutions for high volume broadcast editing (Avid Media Composer and Final Cut Pro) and two mature solutions for promo/web/tvc editing and finishing (Final Cut Pro and Premiere Pro) and some high end finishing tools that these needed to interact with (Be it grading suites like Resolve/Baselight, DI/Finishing systems like Avid Symphony or Scratch, or Compositing/motion graphics capable software be it After Effects, Smoke, Nuke etc).

We are now in a situation where there is only one mainstream solution for high volume broadcast editing (Avid) one viable but growingly decrepit and EOL'd solution for high volume broadcast editing (Final Cut Pro 7), one immature solution for promo/web/tvc editing (Final Cut Pro X), one mature solution for promo/web/tvc editing and finishing (Premiere Pro) and now one high end solution for compositing/finishing of TVC's primarily being brought down to be made available for the wider web/promo/broadcast market (Smoke for Mac... Not sure if it will work for high volume broadcast post as I haven't really seen what the new editorial tools are like but they are obviously trying to pitch it as an editorial solution as well as finishing).

Which is a LONG way of saying that I hope either Adobe or Apple work harder at more closely addressing the needs of broadcast editors, otherwise Avid will again become the only game in town (which isn't great for innovation and competition.) and like it or not Broadcast is at the moment where the steady income is at for a lot of jobbing editors - although the web may become the deliverable of choice soon.

I am also excited, but somewhat cynical, about the increased functionality and power a lot of these tools are giving to day to day editors. Excited because it allows individuals to do more, cynical because there is a growing expectation for individuals to do more if the tools allow us, which can hurt projects when the mantra is to focus on developing Jack of all trade skill sets to get a job, rather than mastery via specialization. The jack of all trades mindset seems endemic to these first decades of a new millenia which will probably be remembered as the internet age, which is ironic when the main thrust of technical advancement via the internet etc one would think would be to promote collaboration...

NO. Just get a Rocket card. Besides, it PAUSES at full res, so you can see focus and so on. At 1/4 res you can see focus perfectly on 5K footage - it's way more than 1080p.

Trabscoded workflow is very, very limiting, and never smart.

 

[Rob Ruffo]

Sorry if I contradict, but human vision is far more complex. You can easily spot the limitations of 8 bit color for certain ranges. I've encountered the problem myself, when I thought I was going too far while grading – I saw some banding – only to find out it was the display. After moving to 10 bit, the issue was gone. It's very important to be able to spot an issue and not be fooled into thinking there is one…

The HP Dreamcolor is still a very nice monitor with true 10 bit. Unfortunately it needs RGB, not YUV, and most of the I/O-acrds or boxes don't support that. Bummer.

Now that Mercury Transmit won't slow down Premire any more, it would be great to see more manufacturers supporting progressive RGB 10 bit. From the specs it seems AJA Io XT does via HDMI, but I haven't tested that.

Most 8 bit displays are not 8bit, they are less. True 8 bit shows no banding. That said, you cannot grade 8 bit, and a LUT box is a form of grading.

 

[Paul Ellington]

Hi Craig,

I am very confused about what you are saying here. Can you please explain? In Premiere you have the idea of playback resolution and paused resoultion and they are individually controlable. With say 5k footage you have many options. You can make a 5k sequence and say set you playback to 1/2 or 1/4 to get realtime playback and then you can set your paused resolution to see the full res 5k image. (hard to see the difference on most monitors at this point though). Also with the new transmit we will put out those images directly to broadcast monitors with our partners. You can also put your 5k image into say a 1080p timeline and get high quality down sizing in paused and set your playback to 1/2 or 1/4 res again.

Any more info about your concerns? Red is interesting because of its fractional decoding it is very high performant for its size.

Cheers

Dave

I just got the student version right before the 26th and nobody from ADOBE will get back to me, where is the customer service?

 

[M Most]

That said, you cannot grade 8 bit, and a LUT box is a form of grading.

Can't grade 8 bit? Really? Then I guess I haven't been doing just that on one very major network show this entire season, working from DNx115 files. Nor has my colleague who's had to do the same thing on yet another major network show. Is it optimal? Certainly not. That doesn't mean it can't be done. It is. Every day. On many, many projects.

 

[Kwan Khan]

Oh man... Fallin' Love with following;
- uninterrupted playback efficiently
- Dynamic trimming
- Enhance Dynamic Link
- Prelude (nice)

 

[Johnny Friday]

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying but if the inference is that you can't monitor 10 bit out of PrPro, it's incorrect. You can output 10 bits via HDSDI through Matrox, AJA, and BM.

David, ABSOLUTELY incorrect...even if your vide card supports 10 bit or you have an I/O box...Adobe does not make an 8 bit signal available out for preview monitor. I've followed this down the line from Black Magic to Matrox and after a year finally got confirmation that it's only an 8 bit signal out of adobe.....much different than FCP where you can choose 8 or 10 bit out. This is something i've been waiting and following and digging up for a looong time now. and fingers crossed we get 10 bit swith with cs 6

......ah yes, this is for MAC only -- sorry, but still a pain.

 

[Johnny Friday]

Pre-Orders began tonight for CS 6 and estimated download on 6 or 7 of May.

 

[Kwan Khan]

Ordered

 

[N.D. Paolo]

IS anybody happy with the new cloud Adobe Software pricing?

Seems, they are trying to charge everyone $600 + taxes next year,
to maintain Adobe's cloud?

Seems STEEP for those of us using master collection or production premium,
and only choosing to upgrade when features justify it
under $500.

Not convinced yet...

 

[David Cherniack]

David, ABSOLUTELY incorrect...even if your vide card supports 10 bit or you have an I/O box...Adobe does not make an 8 bit signal available out for preview monitor. I've followed this down the line from Black Magic to Matrox and after a year finally got confirmation that it's only an 8 bit signal out of adobe.....much different than FCP where you can choose 8 or 10 bit out. This is something i've been waiting and following and digging up for a looong time now. and fingers crossed we get 10 bit swith with cs 6

......ah yes, this is for MAC only -- sorry, but still a pain.

Ahh Mac only. About that I wouldn't know. We Windows folks have had a 10 bit SDI switch from the start. I do believe that with the new Transmit architecture that may change for Macs as Adobe is now handling the foundation of the video output.

 

[Craig Parkes]

NO. Just get a Rocket card. Besides, it PAUSES at full res, so you can see focus and so on. At 1/4 res you can see focus perfectly on 5K footage - it's way more than 1080p.

Trabscoded workflow is very, very limiting, and never smart.

This works for single seat environments, where your sole edit box has a red rocket card. But what if I need 5-20 editors working at once? Rocket card in every machine? Or transcode from one or two ingest machines to a format they all can work on? You have a tendency of making definitive statements based only on your point of view Rob, you need to remember that the needs of editorial pipelines vary from shop to shop and project to project greatly.

 

[Robino_J]

Will we be able to edit 4K at 1/4 using OpenCL accelerated 17" Macbook Pro (6750m) with SSD system drive and 16Gb of Ram? Media on external thunderbolt drives. Right now in CS5.5 my CPU rises to 89~90% and playback stutters at 1/4. At 1/8 CPU goes down to 45~55% and playback is ok... not great. What can we expect performance wise on GPU accelerated Macbook Pros?

 

[David McGavran]

Will we be able to edit 4K at 1/4 using OpenCL accelerated 17" Macbook Pro (6750m) with SSD system drive and 16Gb of Ram? Media on external thunderbolt drives. Right now in CS5.5 my CPU rises to 89~90% and playback stutters at 1/4. At 1/8 CPU goes down to 45~55% and playback is ok... not great. What can we expect performance wise on GPU accelerated Macbook Pros?

I am not sure we tested long form yet with red on this config, but I have a 15" with 16 Gigs ram and 2 SSD's. I was doing 1/4 res 4k playback with realtime adjustments of 3way color corrector and rgb curves without dropping frames using opencl.

Cheers

Dave

 

[Robino_J]

I am not sure we tested long form yet with red on this config, but I have a 15" with 16 Gigs ram and 2 SSD's. I was doing 1/4 res 4k playback with realtime adjustments of 3way color corrector and rgb curves without dropping frames using opencl.

Cheers

Dave

My goodness...now it's even more painful to wait for the release. I want it now !!

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

would be great if Adobe could get some figures for us , letting us decide which workstations to get and which performance to expect from them. can't be that hard for them to post test figures and give us a hint when buying machines. could actually sell more licenses for them afaik