Adobe/Cineform/Iridas Workflow?

[Edgar Pitts]

I know that the current SDK and R3D format prevents Cineform from converting directly to Cineform RAW, but we are looking to lock down and test a workflow for an upcoming feature film.

We will be editing in Premiere with the Cineform codec, finishing in AE and grading in Speedgrade. My questions pertain to Cineform and how their different codecs (4.4.4 and RAW) work with the Speedgrade products.

We would like to purchase Speedgrade XR and grade RAW footage. With the current limitations R3D and Cineform, this puts us in bind.

Are there any advantages or disadvantages for the 4.4.4 versus RAW workflow with this setup? AE integration and performance is also an important issue for us as well.

Thanks.

Edgar

 

[David Newman]

The CineForm SDK is part of the Speedgrade product line up. As we do allow RAW conversions with the new R2CF tool, SpeedGrade XR will work fine. 444 is also supported by the same CineForm SDK, with the same features and quality of RAW decodes. What I don't know is whether CineForm 444 is active with Speedgrade XR, that will be under Iridas's control.

 

[Lin]

Yes, Cineform 444 works in SpeedGrade XR, as do all Quicktime, AVI or RAW-based file formats.

We are also showing native REDCode support at IBC, based on the RED SDK.

Lin

 

[Nils Ruinet]

We are also showing native REDCode support at IBC, based on the RED SDK.

Lin

Is that without transcoding, similar to Scratch ? (I mean realtime)
Or does it perform a conversion to DPX first ?

 

[Lin]

Is that without transcoding, similar to Scratch ? (I mean realtime)
Or does it perform a conversion to DPX first ?

Yes, without transcoding.

Transcoding to Cineform first however makes it easier to achieve real time speed, as they currently have an edge over REDCode, performance wise.

Lin

 

[Edgar Pitts]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

David - That is great that you can now transcode to Cineform RAW. We will be getting our first Red test footage shortly, and I can not wait to jump into this new workflow.

Lin - Is there a performance difference or advantages between Cineform 444 and Cineform RAW in performance on Speedgrade XR?

Edgar

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Is that without transcoding, similar to Scratch ? (I mean realtime)
Or does it perform a conversion to DPX first ?

Just want to clarify - and Lin, please correct me if I am wrong!!!

SCRATCH does not perform a transcode at all, but accesses the R3D files natively. There is no delay in load-in time for R3D files. Loading 100 files will take about 1 second.

Speedgrade does perform a transcode, but not to DPX, rather to Cineform, so they do get the goodness of Cineform - smaller size, faster transcode time, etc.

But it is not a realtime directly from R3D process, and it is not the RAW media.

Best,

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Edgar Pitts]

These are two different things - R3D & Cineform files.

I assume that if you have already transcoded to a Cineform format you would not have to transcode in Speedgrade XR. Correct?

 

[Paris Remillard]

Just want to clarify - and Lin, please correct me if I am wrong!!!

SCRATCH does not perform a transcode at all, but accesses the R3D files natively. There is no delay in load-in time for R3D files. Loading 100 files will take about 1 second.

Speedgrade does perform a transcode, but not to DPX, rather to Cineform, so they do get the goodness of Cineform - smaller size, faster transcode time, etc.

But it is not a realtime directly from R3D process, and it is not the RAW media.

Best,

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

I don't want to speak for Lin, but what I read from his posts is that Speedgrade will have native R3D support just like Scratch does, without any transcoding necessary. If, however, you want faster performance, transcoding to Cineform will speed things up. As with Lucas, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Lin]

Just want to clarify - and Lin, please correct me if I am wrong!!!

SCRATCH does not perform a transcode at all, but accesses the R3D files natively. There is no delay in load-in time for R3D files. Loading 100 files will take about 1 second.

Speedgrade does perform a transcode, but not to DPX, rather to Cineform, so they do get the goodness of Cineform - smaller size, faster transcode time, etc.

Hi Lucas,

no, there is no transcoding involved. You click on the (RAW) R3D media and it plays. You can select the resolution (Full, Half, Quarter) and you can work with your native R3D footage.

As for my mentioning Cineform: Cineform has done a very good job designing a file format that performs very well. So they currently hold the performance crown. If you go through a transcoding step first, converting a R3D to Cineform in an offline process, you will have better performance without buying a monster machine. But the drawback is the offline process in between.

So with SpeedGrade XR it's your choice, work with R3D directly or with Cineform. Both open directly and instantly.

I am sure most other grading apps like Nucoda, Baselight, Quantel will have the same functionality soon. The SDK provides for this.

Hope this clarifies the question.

Lin

 

[Lin]

Thanks for the responses everyone.

Lin - Is there a performance difference or advantages between Cineform 444 and Cineform RAW in performance on Speedgrade XR?

Edgar

Cineform 444 is an RGB codec, so it contains data that has already been Bayer interpolated from the original RAW data. In the case of RED files, this bayer interpolation is produced by the RED SDK.

Cineform RAW is a RAW codec, containing the original sensor data in a compressed format.

The immediate difference is that RGB data is three times the size of the original sensor data. The Cineform compression does a good job at keeping the sizes down, but it still has to deal with more data.

Both file formats play in real time on a moderate off the shelf machine in SpeedGrade XR.

Cineform RAW is very fast in SpeedGrade XR because we can use our GPU-powered RealTime RAW 2.0 engine on it. So we don't have to go through the CPU, which is already busy decoding the compression, and offload the Bayer interpolation to the graphics card. That's the reason we can play up to 4K in real time in render quality for other cameras (D21, Phantom 4K, DALSA 4K).

If (when) RED allows access to the RAW data through the SDK, you will be able to playback 2K in real time on an off the shelf 4 core workstation. At current time, RED want to make sure the RAW is always interpolated in the same way, so they allow access only through their CPU-based algorithm, through either the SDK or the Scratch node. So there is no way to transcode from R3D to Cineform RAW and no way for us (or anybody else) to access the RAW data.

Opening up the RAW also opens up a can of worms for RED, since it's easy to implement a really crappy Bayer interpolation and the resulting pictures will then be blamed on RED. Maybe a certification process for HQ algorithms like RealTime RAW are the solution.

Lin

 

[Mike Zinner]

So there is no way to transcode from R3D to Cineform RAW and no way for us (or anybody else) to access the RAW data.

Well, no direct access to the RAW data but there is a workaround.

Cineform uses the RGB data that's made available by the RED SDK and interpolates it back to RAW data. This is slow and most probably results in a slight image quality loss but after this step you can use all the advantages of Cineform RAW.

 

[laguun]

Just want to clarify - and Lin, please correct me if I am wrong!!!

SCRATCH does not perform a transcode at all, but accesses the R3D files natively. There is no delay in load-in time for R3D files. Loading 100 files will take about 1 second.

Luki, yes, you are wrong - speedgrades raw support is much more advanced, what also can be expected from -the- pioneer of raw DI.

Its no different in speedgrade XR - it supports redcode directly.

But speedgrade XR supports also all the other RAW formats, which scratch doesnt:

ARRI D21 .ari
ARRI D21 S.Two RAW (.dpx)
Cineform (.avi/.mov)
DALSA Origin 4K RAW (.dpx)
Phantom HD/4K (.cine)
REDCode RAW (.r3d)
Silicon Imaging SI 2K/SI Mini (Cineform RAW .avi/.mov)
Silicon Imaging SI 2K/SI Mini (Uncompressed .siv)
Weisscam HS-1 RAW (.wcr)

Speedgrade does perform a transcode, but not to DPX, rather to Cineform, so they do get the goodness of Cineform - smaller size, faster transcode time, etc.

No. This is one additional option, which scratch also doesnt offer yet, but one can also work with redcode directly. Decoding to cineform before gading is an interesting option, as cineform has a faster than redcode in all applications and is also natively supported in many other applications which dont support redcode.

Also, speedgrade can use the GPU for debayering processes.
To use the GPU also for redcode, the sdk needs to be extended to raw data file access as well.


red should certify the state of the art manufacturers to access raw directly in the SDK - that way, even faster and better native DI options would be avaialble.

Its also important to understand that speedgade runs directly under OSX, Windows and linux - i however dont know if linux supports all raw formats.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Its no different in speedgrade XR - it supports redcode directly.

If (when) RED allows access to the RAW data through the SDK, you will be able to playback 2K in real time on an off the shelf 4 core workstation. ... So there is no way to transcode from R3D to Cineform RAW and no way for us (or anybody else) to access the RAW data.

Laguun,

Read what Lin said. At the current time, they are not accessing the RAW data. So yes, it is different.

Speedgrade is a great tool for RAW workflow, and this is not meant as a putdown! I am just clarifying how things work.

Lucas

 

[laguun]

Laguun,

Read what Lin said. At the current time, they are not accessing the RAW data. So yes, it is different.

Speedgrade is a great tool for RAW workflow, and this is not meant as a putdown! I am just clarifying how things work.

Lucas

Hi Lucas,

speedgrade accesses the raw data -directly- through the red sdk, the debayer is in reds code. There is no need to transcode.

To further benefit of the advanced in-gpu debayer iridas has for all other 2K and 4K raw cameras, the red sdk needs to allow direct access to the JPEG2000 files, which is still missing.

 

[Lin]

Laguun and Lucas,

SpeedGrade accesses the R3Ds through the RED SDK, exactly like Scratch accesses the R3Ds through the Scratch Node that is available from RED.

At present time, RED gives nobody access to the RAW Bayer pattern. So both SpeedGrade and Scratch get a Debayered RGB image as a starting point for further processing.

If we had access to the RAW, like we have with other cameras, we could do some interesting things, but we don't.

So GPU-accelerated RAW is not possible with R3D at the moment. We may have that in the future. In the meantime we have to live in the real world, which, unfortunately, is the only place where you get a decent steak.

Lin

 

[Lucas Wilson]

Laguun and Lucas,

SpeedGrade accesses the R3Ds through the RED SDK, exactly like Scratch accesses the R3Ds through the Scratch Node that is available from RED.

At present time, RED gives nobody access to the RAW Bayer pattern. So both SpeedGrade and Scratch get a Debayered RGB image as a starting point for further processing.

If we had access to the RAW, like we have with other cameras, we could do some interesting things, but we don't.

...

Lin

Sorry Lin, but that is not correct.

SCRATCH does not start with the debayered RGB image. We start with the RAW file at the bayer stage. That is why - within SCRATCH - you have access to all the color metadata parameters contained within an R3D file and can access/change them through the course of a grading session.

Also, this may not be obvious because you are not a SCRATCH customer. ; ) But, the node that is on the RED page is no longer current. With the 4.0 release of SCRATCH, the "node" is no longer separately obtained from the RED website, but is an integral part of the SCRATCH installer.

But to be clear - we are not using a debayered RGB image as a starting point. We are using the RAW R3D file and have control of it as a RAW image.

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[David Newman]

That is why Lin and myself and looking forward to direct RAW access from SDK, putting all vendors on an equal playing field regarding R3D decoding. RED SDK does however allow you to control all the color metadata, the only missing feature is RAW bayer access which impacts performance opportunities.

 

[Edgar Pitts]

A certified vendor program sounds like the solution.

Red is obviously providing direct RAW access to Scratch, why not let some of the leaders in RAW also have direct access???

 

[Lin]

Sorry Lin, but that is not correct.

SCRATCH does not start with the debayered RGB image. We start with the RAW file at the bayer stage. That is why - within SCRATCH - you have access to all the color metadata parameters contained within an R3D file and can access/change them through the course of a grading session.

The parameters you are mentioning are accessible to us through the SDK as well.

But to be clear - we are not using a debayered RGB image as a starting point. We are using the RAW R3D file and have control of it as a RAW image.

Are you saying that you have created your own Bayer interpolation algorithms, that are different from RED's?

Lin