Acquisition Formats for Scarlet -X

[dean tsolakis]

G'day people,
Does any one have information on this?


Cheers

 

[Trevor Meeks]

G'day people,
Does any one have information on this?
Cheers

You need to be more specific. What exactly are you asking? Please use complete sentences.

 

[Peter N]

Are you asking about redcode raw files or the redmag ssd?

 

[Jean Simenon]

Are you asking about redcode raw files or the redmag ssd?

I'm guessing until we have a red rocket, a super powerful computer and especially the need for 4K (extrapolated from Bayer pattern) a lot of users of Scarlet (not Epic, not Red1) are going to be very satisfied if they could work directly with an I Frame format at 1080p. Maybe 444 or 422.

I'm not familiar with the quality of the SDI output but Scarlet already has the internal processing power to output 30fps 1080p, why not make that available as part of the possible recording format on the SSD.

A lot of users of the Scarlet are here to have a camera with multiple capabilities. HDR, 4K, 60fps+, Canon Lenses, Small, etc... But I don't see redcode as being one of the priorities, especially at $10k the system to handle it.

Please refrain from telling us to leave this forum or roll your eyes. We are not epic/red1 users and don't have the same motivation as you've had in the past.

 

[Peter N]

Please refrain from telling us to leave this forum or roll your eyes.

I assume you are telling this to reduser members in general and not to me personally.

Eventhough I understand what you are saying, I as many others believe that redcode is one of the most essential parts of image acquisition with a Red camera. The secret sauce. The OP sad nothing about the SDI output or Prores. Maybe if he could be a bit more specific?

 

[Jean Simenon]

I assume you are telling this to reduser members in general and not to me personally.

Eventhough I understand what you are saying, I as many others believe that redcode is one of the most essential parts of image acquisition with a Red camera. The secret sauce. The OP sad nothing about the SDI output or Prores. Maybe if he could be a bit more specific?

Not directed to you indeed. More of a request to not shut down this discussion.

The reality is if this camera was to record 444 1080p on its media, it would still be the single piece of hardware that would do this at that price and have all these other capabilities I mentioned, allowing its new users to experiment with Redcode as well, and possibly invest more into red products in the future. But having 1080p (from the 4K Bayer pattern, no windowed 2K of course) would enable a new more affordable step into red.

 

[Andrew Allsbury]

If you want 444 why not buy a Sony F3 with Slog upgrade? Its going to be cheaper in the long run. IMHO raw is the single most important thing about red cameras, followed by dynamic range (+HDRx) and resolution.

 

[Andrew Allsbury]

Also, on the editing end. I don't understand why people think they need these godzilla computers to edit red footage. I put together a 10m 5k/4k+HDRx project on my year old laptop and it handled it fine. Now storage...that's the part that can be a little tricky, but TBs are getting pretty damn cheap.

 

[Jean Simenon]

If you want 444 why not buy a Sony F3 with Slog upgrade? Its going to be cheaper in the long run. IMHO raw is the single most important thing about red cameras, followed by dynamic range (+HDRx) and resolution.

Agreed, but it's Sony mount. No control on canon lenses. No faster frame rates, no HDR, not as great DR, no 4K if you need it... All in all the possibilities with the scarlet are simply more! Even without Redcode.

I worked with some the of the r3ds available here, and my 2008 dual quad core Mac pro took 15 minutes to convert 1 minute.

 

[David Rasberry]

The alternatives with Scarlet are to record 10 bit 4:2:2 1080p clean feed from the HDMI or HDSDI ports to an external recorder of some kind. It essentially works like any other video camera at that point, but you have to use camera setups that give you the look you want as you lose the flexibility of working with raw footage. No higher frame rates there either. Nice alternative for routine quick turn video work, but redcode raw is the major reason to buy a Red.

 

[Jean Simenon]

The alternatives with Scarlet are to record 10 bit 4:2:2 1080p clean feed from the HDMI or HDSDI ports to an external recorder of some kind. It essentially works like any other video camera at that point, but you have to use camera setups that give you the look you want as you lose the flexibility of working with raw footage. No higher frame rates there either. Nice alternative for routine quick turn video work, but redcode raw is the major reason to buy a Red.

RAW is great. But what is the raw information. Don't we have 2K color information and 4K luminance from the sensor. Can't we then just have a record option at 2K 444? Reducing filesize and time.

4K 24fps is about 400mbps at 6:1 redcode compression. 2K 24fps 6:1 redcode is about 100mbps.

Prores 4444 is 300mpbs at 2K 24fps. That's essentially a lot heavier than redcode. Is prores less efficient in compression requiring more higher data rate or does prores have more information? Is redcode complex to decode making it hard to use unless you have the hardware to handle it?

Why would you lose flexibility if you image is flat, low contrast, low saturation, etc.. I think you would have just as much latitude. What is the data rate of the SDI?

Thank you for the discussion.

 

[Kevin Marshall]

Prores 4444 is 300mpbs at 2K 24fps. That's essentially a lot heavier than redcode. Is prores less efficient in compression requiring more higher data rate or does prores have more information? Is redcode complex to decode making it hard to use unless you have the hardware to handle it?

Just on that point - REDCODE uses wavelet compression, which is fundamentally different - and more efficient - than DCT, which is what ProRes, MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and many other codecs use.

 

[Philipe Ratton]

I'm sorry if I'm beeing rude but there are lots of good options out there if you want a great 1080p camera.
And you know what, they are cheaper than scarlet, some are very cheaper.
The nice things about scarlet are resolution, redcode, dr.
I believe in choosing the right tools for the right job.
My Scarlet has some jobs to do and all of them require resolution, redcode and monster DR.
That's why I bought it.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

RAW is great. But what is the raw information. Don't we have 2K color information and 4K luminance from the sensor. Can't we then just have a record option at 2K 444? Reducing filesize and time.

4K 24fps is about 400mbps at 6:1 redcode compression. 2K 24fps 6:1 redcode is about 100mbps.

Prores 4444 is 300mpbs at 2K 24fps. That's essentially a lot heavier than redcode. Is prores less efficient in compression requiring more higher data rate or does prores have more information? Is redcode complex to decode making it hard to use unless you have the hardware to handle it?

Why would you lose flexibility if you image is flat, low contrast, low saturation, etc.. I think you would have just as much latitude. What is the data rate of the SDI?

Thank you for the discussion.

It would seem that the OP's question has been set aside in the ensuing discussion but, so be it, I guess.

In any case, it seems that what you are asking is a whole new firmware development path for RED. As others have said, you can get a clean feed from the HDMI or HD-SDI outs if you are willing to record them to another device. As to creating the ability to record this on to the internal media, I wouldn't hold my breath for RED to go down that path. I think RED is very much about REDCode RAW and, I think they are quite happy focusing there. Personally, I don't see what the burning need would be for sidestepping this, but that's just me.

 

[Jean Simenon]

Just on that point - REDCODE uses wavelet compression, which is fundamentally different - and more efficient - than DCT, which is what ProRes, MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and many other codecs use.

You're right. I remember reading about this. So essentially the camera might be able to record recode raw 2K from the 4K (maybe even 5K... although possibly too much data at 5K for scarlet) sensor data.

 

[D Fuller]

RAW is great. But what is the raw information. Don't we have 2K color information and 4K luminance from the sensor. Can't we then just have a record option at 2K 444? Reducing filesize and time.

No, that's not what how it works at all. It does NOT work like video. You can't think of it that way, it is not an encoded RGB signal..

Think of Redcode as a series of digital stills, similar to what a Nikon or Canon still camera produces. The color image is derived from the Bayer-pattern matrix, but although it uses red, green, and blue color information, that color matrix functions in a very different way than an RGB video image. You can't just record less of it and have anything at all.

 

[Kevin Marshall]

You're right. I remember reading about this. So essentially the camera might be able to record recode raw 2K from the 4K (maybe even 5K... although possibly too much data at 5K for scarlet) sensor data.

There's a couple of things at play, here. Redcode and RAW are different things. You could theoretically compress anything using redcode - in fact I'm pretty sure that's in essence what Red Ray is. RAW is another matter. Getting a 2K image from the full 4K (or 5K) area would require either a debayer and downscale (like what happens when going to 1080 or 720p out of the SDI/HDMI), which would no longer be RAW - or something like the scaled RAW function in some DSLRs, which requires pixel binning, which Red is fundamentally against.

Right now, the only real ways to get <4K footage out of any Red camera is to window the sensor (RAW), or to record the video out (not RAW). There was mention of a full-sensor 1080p RGB mode way back once upon a time, but no word on that in months (years?), so I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

 

[Erik Franzén]

You're right. I remember reading about this. So essentially the camera might be able to record recode raw 2K from the 4K (maybe even 5K... although possibly too much data at 5K for scarlet) sensor data.

I am sorry, but this shows a lack of fundamental understanding of what RAW even is. You cannot have a 2K "RAW" from a 5K camera at the same sensor size - it doesn't work that way since the image has to (at that point) be scaled in some form or the other.

 

[David Rasberry]

There's a couple of things at play, here. Redcode and RAW are different things.

Right now, the only real ways to get <4K footage out of any Red camera is to window the sensor (RAW), or to record the video out (not RAW). There was mention of a full-sensor 1080p RGB mode way back once upon a time, but no word on that in months (years?), so I wouldn't bet the farm on it.

Redcode is Red's proprietary Bayer raw compression scheme. It records the raw sensor data to a compressed data file that is otherwise not altered, 16 or 12 bit values for every pixel for every frame. This is debayered and encoded to any number of available formats from full 16 bit RGB TIFF's to different versions of Prores or other encoded video formats in Redcine-X. The HDMI and HDSDI monitor outputs debayer and encode the raw data real time to uncompressed 4:2:2 10bit YPbPr digital video or according to the manual 8 bit 4:4:4 RGB video, your choice. Although there was some discussion in the past of recording 1080p RGB from the full frame sensor to internal media, this option is not listed in the specifications of Scarlet. Internal acquisition formats are all Redcode Bayer RAW only.
1080p and 720p RGB recording are listed as part of Epic's specs, but that feature has not been enabled yet and no one knows what exactly the RGB format will be or when it will be added.

 

[Kevin Marshall]

Redcode is Red's proprietary Bayer raw compression scheme. It records the raw sensor data to a compressed data file that is otherwise not altered, 16 or 12 bit values for every pixel for every frame. This is debayered and encoded to any number of available formats from full 16 bit RGB TIFF's to different versions of Prores or other encoded video formats in Redcine-X. The HDMI and HDSDI monitor outputs debayer and encode the raw data real time to uncompressed 4:2:2 10bit YPbPr digital video or according to the manual 8 bit 4:4:4 RGB video, your choice. Although there was some discussion in the past of recording 1080p RGB from the full frame sensor to internal media, this option is not listed in the specifications of Scarlet. Internal acquisition formats are all Redcode Bayer RAW only.
1080p and 720p RGB recording are listed as part of Epic's specs, but that feature has not been enabled yet and no one knows what exactly the RGB format will be or when it will be added.

Is this a response, or an elaboration? This is basically what I was attempting to communicate, albeit in a more general fashion...