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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

A taste...

Wildest expectations for me:

A. Still $3,000
B. A full stop of DNR more than R1
C. A full stop more sensitive than the 2/3" mode of R1
D. The same zoom range on the built in lens but 2.4f

E. Any three of these!

THAT'S W-I-L-D!
 
Halsu said:
How about this for a "wildest speculation":

Red has made a breakthrough in sensor technology - a very, very fast high resolution plenoptic sensor, and a similar breakthrough in compression technology.

(in case you don't know what plenoptic means, read this)
http://www-bcs.mit.edu/people/jyawang/demos/plenoptic/plenoptic.html

The pocket-sized camera is able to shoot 8K plenoptic video at very high frame rates under normal lighting conditions and compress them to a manageable size. The sensor sensitivity, speed and compression efficiency have all been improved by a factor of 100 or so. The footage will be always shot at, say, 2400 frames a second.

What would this mean in practice??

1. Shooting plenoptic means the footage is instantly 3D compatible, with single camera, single lens.

2. A high resolution depth matte can be extracted from the image by computing the differences of the view points. No more greenscreen...

3. The camera's focus point and depth of field characteristics can be determined in post

3b. In the future there will be software that will generate 3D mesh from the footage, even if it's just one frame, as well as extract camera's path as 3D motion, but the rumor is that this may be done by a 3rd party ;-)

4. Shooting at 2400 fps means footage can be conformed to any normal playback frame rate in post.

5. It also means the shutter speed can be determined in post by combining individual frames (i.e. 1/48 at 24 fps would mean combining 50 frames together, then throwing away 50 frames, rinse and repeat).

6. As a side effect, the camera would be a HDR camera - the exposure would be created from 50 combined normal dynamic range frames, which in practice means roughly 6 extra stops of latitude.

7. A "minor" side effect would be awesome slow motion footage (when giving away extra dynamic range etc.), up to 1% speed.

8. Of course creating speed ramps in post is also a non-issue.
.
Click to expand...

I don't care what anyone says, this is the camera of my dreams! I have heard of plenoptic sensor technology before briefly and although its still a ways off, those features would be mystical. Imagine the control you would have in post. Oh, i accidently missed focus...no problem, we will bring it back in post. Forget 3d tracking apps, DOF, DR, and Phantom cameras. Maybe this is dreaming but i think this technology IS doable, maybe just not right now. But why shun it when its demand that drives the forward thinking and innovation?
Anyhow, looking forward to your announcement on the 13th Jim, even if it doesn't include z-depth and 2000fps :-)
 
mikeburton said:
I have heard of plenoptic sensor technology before briefly and although its still a ways off, those features would be mystical.
Click to expand...

It IS doable, NOW. Already done. Plenoptic cameras, and the software to do all i described exist today. See my last post on the previous page for links - especially watch the linked video, it's mindblowing.

Maybe this is dreaming but i think this technology IS doable, maybe just not right now.
Click to expand...

What's NOT here yet, is high resolution, high speed moving images capturing, humanly sized affordable plenoptic cameras. All these features DO exist - just not combined to one camera ;-)
 
Oh, i forgot to mention

11. The ability to do "Hitchkock zooms" (zoom in, track out) in post, to some extent.
 
Uhm...
So Halsu you say 2400fps at 8K right?
The RED One does 24fps at 4K and given the current 8GB cards can hold about 4 minutes at 24fps that's 5760 frames to fill the 8 GIG card.
With what you are speculating, that should be barely enough for a little over 2 seconds if it were 2400fps at 4K
But since you want 8K, that should be down to 1/4thso you'd be lucky to record half a second on 200$ worth of storage.
And on top of that you want the camera to retail less than 1K$ or as much as it would cost you to buy 2.5 seconds worth of storage...

Still, I like the way you are thinking :)

Jim, what can I cay.
I'm waiting credit card in hand.
So existing RED One owners get first dibs on Epic and Scarlet or just Epic?
 
nutman said:
And on top of that you want the camera to retail less than 1K$ or as much as it would cost you to buy 2.5 seconds worth of storage...
Click to expand...

No, no, the beauty is that they've of course found a new compression algorithm that will fit hours of that data to a cheap 8GB SD card, visually lossless.

;-)
 
2008ro.jpg
 
A taste...seems all we get from RED is beta taste (and 90% a bad taste)
Does Red actually realize how much of a joke they are at this time?
 
Jim, it's Halloween, you have to give us a few more hints.... it's the rules, you know what I'm talking about... we get a treat or we'll be forced into playing tricks.

Sorry, I wish it could be some other way, but rules are rules!
 
No focus change afterwards

No focus change afterwards

Halsu said:
Cameras like the one i described are not necessarily that far in the future.

If this stuff follows Moore's law, 100 time improvement compared to current technology would only take about 10 years or so. Remember it's just roughly 10 years since all digital cameras were SD - RED ONE pushes dozens of times more image data through the pipeline.

And it doesn't need to be 100 times better to be better...

Even RED ONE can be used in the way i described, if you skip the plenoptic part.

When shooting 2K at 1/120s. 120 fps, it should be possible to conform the footage to different frame rates and shutter speeds without visible artifacts (i.e. for 1/40 sec 24fps footage one would combine 3 frames, throw away 2). Combining the image from three frames should also improve signal to noise ratio (usable dynamic range) by more than one stop.

As far as plenoptic cameras go, they already exist.

http://www-graphics.stanford.edu/papers/lfcamera/

mark2.jpg
jacquie2.jpg


Be sure to check the video, it explains the technology with great examples:
http://www-graphics.stanford.edu/papers/lfcamera/lfcamera.avi
Click to expand...

How wants to be the man/woman to refoccus a 90 min feature movie and who wants to be the cameraman tto let them do this?? with his shots??
Not me!! Its nice for foto's to fix your msitakes, but in a movie a different focus gives a different emotion and i love to keep that in my own hands. Robert
 
camlight said:
How wants to be the man/woman to refoccus a 90 min feature movie and who wants to be the cameraman tto let them do this?? with his shots??
Click to expand...

To me that feels a bit silly... as if having more controll was a bad thing.

Every cameraman with any smarts should do it, if it was possible. One less thing to worry about on the set. Less takes, more finished footage each day. The take where the actors are at their best could be used a bit more often.

And just like photographers now participate in color correction sessions during post production, they could participate in a focusing session in the future if they feel the need.

It's the same as if you didn't want to shoot RAW, because you want to control the image's tonal range on the shoot.
 
Halsu said:
To me that feels a bit silly... as if having more controll was a bad thing.

Every cameraman with any smarts should do it, if it was possible. One less thing to worry about on the set. Less takes, more finished footage each day. The take where the actors are at their best could be used a bit more often.

And just like photographers now participate in color correction sessions during post production, they could participate in a focusing session in the future if they feel the need.

It's the same as if you didn't want to shoot RAW, because you want to control the image's tonal range on the shoot.
Click to expand...

Yup! Exactly. Your images are already being tweaked in post more than ever. Why not have that much more control? Sorry, but progressive thinking doesn't say (for example) I don't need or want a 4k digital motion picture camera which was unheard of 5 years ago cause I have this really cool XL2. A good 1st will nail focus so we will throw that argument out the window for a moment but wouldn't it be nice to be able to turn that shot into a rack focus or be able to incorporate VFX immediately on set so everyone could truely visualize that action scene? Or to be able to move on to the next shot quicker not having to worry about that green screen being evenly lit cause guess what...no greenscreen will be necessary! Call me crazy but this will be the camera of the future! There are already guys who have created cameras that motion track backgrounds and key greencreen on the fly. They seem a bit clumsy but are a step in the right direction.
 
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