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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

a satisfied customer ...

J

Jan Reiff

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reading all this confuses me more and more

yes, i did expect a bit more sensitivity from dragon , the first tests after delivery (march 2014) were a "light" disappointment, but then, it changes fast when i saw what´s possible with the footage

i never dug in the dirt to find the noise, because i do not watch movies in "crop" modus.

then the discussion came up - and actually there is red noise in pushed blacks. fact.
it will be gone with new firmware. a very good camera is getting even better. welcome.
the red noise shouldn´t be there, and RED react.

now to the other side of life.

i end most of my testings for an upcoming project yesterday. evening hours, dark clouds, rain ...

see it here, outdoor and indoor. just a try on grading, testing some looks.


https://www.flickr.com/photos/123436930@N07/sets/72157645586552822/

some infos here:

earphones: light only from an imac display in the back, low brightness at monitor set up, so, there is some noise in front, but: this is ISO2000.

the bottle on table has a practical at the wall from back, and dusk light from a small window. a scene that needed to be pushed. it´s absolutely useable, and this here has no NR at all


honestly - this footage looks great - i have a lot of cameras to compare, and i shot al lot of stuff with other well known rental cameras - i like the F55 + 65, especially the F65 is a great tool, and a huge one indeed ;-)

but the Dragon is clearly in a leading role if you see the whole package - colors, dynamic. the image is overall clearer and brighter than MX was.

you must crop in to find the noise, you must push areas that are not supposed to be bright to get a noise that i would call an issue.

so, no issues here. for me. i know there are other opinions. don´t know where to find the difference.

the bottles as an example:
when you really dig, you find the red noise, but with a NR correction, it´s fine. and this are light conditions that will be never used without any kind of extra lights in our studio.
even this, as said - will be past with the new firmware i think.

the huge differences in a lot of footage posted here, are really crazy.

i have nothing to complain ... of course, i welcome the fix in the new firmware as one of a further improvement, RED always did

looking forward to start the new projects. hope all will get same results soon.

Cheers
 
Thanks for sharing, these are images to get excited about and ease my mind slightly. Without a dragon in my hands (yet) all of this talk is quite unsettling. To me, these images have a totally acceptable amount of noise. I do wonder, do you see any more with a moving image? do you think you could post some 10 frame r3ds of the 2000 iso stuff?

Cheers,

Phil.
 
thanks.

and remember: just a small (foto) tripod and dragon, 1 redvolt, red prime 1.8, one umbrella ... that´s why i am with the RED package, unbeatable.

1h before football, yesterday, run and gun, here at our studio area, and almost no noise. every frame a few-minute touch on photoshop or da vinci .

still i do not get into it, what is happening with the footage from other users here ...
 
i am not at office right now, but i can upload you 10 frames at the weekend okay ? i take a notice about it.
 
there is noise yes, but the only NR i partly used was in Redcine itself for some parts as the red noise is a known issue, but one you can take care of until it will be improved with the firmware.
i think the noise is so fine that it takes off this clean look i personaly do not like on digital cameras. i think Dragon is one of the cameras that come very close to filmstock right now in terms of character.
saying this ,if you push these images more, there is more and more noise, of course. but i would never come to the trucks at 10 pm without light to shoot a super clean daylight image ... but the mood of 10 pm is captured very well here, colors (ok, here we have a grade on it), and a quiet good detail at an completely open lense

i will do the same shots when the new firmware is available, and i am sure this will be a great experience at the UHD Screen too.
 
Great images. As long as no one does a SD crop out of a 6k image, I think the camera is fine as is, but I'll take better if they can do better.

When scaled down to 4k, images moving, I just don't see what all the complaining is about either. Maybe a deflection from one's own ability to shoot such a cutting edge camera?
 
Jan,

Nice professional images. Using just what the light gives you. I like the examples of the bottles. Going to reach for a nice scotch later this evening.

Battistella
 
Elsie N said:
When scaled down to 4k, images moving, I just don't see what all the complaining is about either. Maybe a deflection from one's own ability to shoot such a cutting edge camera?
Click to expand...

Deflection? So User error? Perhaps people with problems are prosumers using a camera that is beyond their skillset?
 
Bohdan Klos said:
Deflection? So User error? Perhaps people with problems are prosumers using a camera that is beyond their skillset?
Click to expand...
No, but I do think a lot of people shooting Dragon aren't properly acquainted with post. Jim said years ago that people shooting RAW with RED cameras should have a working knowledge of post.
 
i can´t say why some footage is really noisy with Dragon ... but i saw 2 weeks ago one wrong exposure on Dragon in action: camera was in redgamma 4 output on the monitors, and they exposed according to it. so they closed the lense to avoid clipping in the field monitor, but we all know: this is not the RAW. so they lost a lot of light on the sensor. at the end, it would have been underexposed. i told them ;-)
 
Jan Reiff said:
i can´t say why some footage is really noisy with Dragon ... but i saw 2 weeks ago one wrong exposure on Dragon in action: camera was in redgamma 4 output on the monitors, and they exposed according to it. so they closed the lense to avoid clipping in the field monitor, but we all know: this is not the RAW. so they lost a lot of light on the sensor. at the end, it would have been underexposed. i told them ;-)
Click to expand...

I believe Redgamma 4 is the culprit for some underexposure but not all. It crushes the low end more than RG3 and pushes the highlights more than RG3. SO those exposing for the highlights will be pulling their footage more to the low end, thus the noise. Also, the RAW exposure tools seem to be slightly off on Dragon. There are times where the goal post says clipping but in post you can roll it back to 250ISO and there's no clipping and your highlights are all there. So that could also be leading some to underexpose. Some people like underexposing images, which is fine as long as you don't push them in post and expect them to be noise free. Though I will say there is more noise than most expected so that is where the concern is coming from mostly. If you shot with the old olpf it's like night and day shooting with the new olpf in terms of noise (yes the new olpf is much better for everything else except low light).
 
RAW exposure off: think RED will test this with the new firmware. i will check this too with my camera
 
I don't understand why they changed the Raw mode to an emulation of a log curve? I need blacks to be black and clipping whites to be white when viewing a in RAW mode. I don't care of blacks being gray and white being gray to judge on exposure.

To avoid noise shooting with the new OLPF setting (wich I never had troubles with the Original one) I tend to shoot 320 iso with the risk in going in the clipping zone.

We are far from the claim "2000 iso is now the new 800".

My way of shooting is to push the R3D to the last bit of infos in the low lights. Either to protect the highlights (even with Dragon) or to film night scenes where I need those 2000+ iso values.

The thread I sarted 20 hours ago was apparently deleted, so I coundn't answer Jarred's post. I'm shooting Dragon on a daily basis, but I'm not anymore confident and take much less risk with the camera I have in hand.

My post asked for a schedule. As I can't read the thread anymore... does anyone have an answer?

I would be such a satisfied customer.

Patrick
 
Patrick Tresch said:
We are far from the claim "2000 iso is now the new 800".
I'm shooting Dragon on a daily basis, but I'm not anymore confident and take much less risk with the camera I have in hand.
My post asked for a schedule. As I can't read the thread anymore... does anyone have an answer?

Patrick
Click to expand...

2000ISO is a dream for now.


I dont think Jarred/Red knows how long it will take therefore does not want to disappoint again after saying a fix would be out the weekend this problem raised its head.
 
Patrick Tresch said:
I don't understand why they changed the Raw mode to an emulation of a log curve? I need blacks to be black and clipping whites to be white when viewing a in RAW mode. I don't care of blacks being gray and white being gray to judge on exposure.

To avoid noise shooting with the new OLPF setting (wich I never had troubles with the Original one) I tend to shoot 320 iso with the risk in going in the clipping zone.

We are far from the claim "2000 iso is now the new 800".

My way of shooting is to push the R3D to the last bit of infos in the low lights. Either to protect the highlights (even with Dragon) or to film night scenes where I need those 2000+ iso values.

The thread I sarted 20 hours ago was apparently deleted, so I coundn't answer Jarred's post. I'm shooting Dragon on a daily basis, but I'm not anymore confident and take much less risk with the camera I have in hand.

My post asked for a schedule. As I can't read the thread anymore... does anyone have an answer?

I would be such a satisfied customer.

Patrick
Click to expand...

I remember a thread started by Mark L Pederson from OffHollywood regarding the RAW view as originally done and the request for a change. David Battistella might be able to comment on this as he was active in the discussion.

Might this be the answer to your question?
 
I think it's all about luts.

If everything gets defaulted to a flat 800 ISO 56k, then it's much easier to slap a LUT on the image. I think it's the first move toward LUT implementation.

Its a bit strange after this many years as it's applied even in the MX.

I think it also eliminates an 800iso base sensitivity argument. Technically, the raw view as always been a kinda ugly green, 320iso image. For those that use MX for years and relied on raw view to see it change is initially quite weird.

Nothing really changes though. I just set my ISO to 250 or 320 (800 if I have to see in the dark) by doing this it's really easy to see when stuff is underexposed. Now if I flip to raw view, it's just for the histogram and to see how fat and how middle or right it is.

If I was a betting man, and I'm not, then I'd say this is phase one LUT implementation and a way of conforming to industry standard to make RED log look more like sony, arri, BMD, and all the other flavors of log out there that might be LUT friendly.

Does se not matter to me, I don't expose for luts, I'm a histogram man. :)

battistella
 
David Battistella said:
I think it's all about luts.
...

If I was a betting man, and I'm not, then I'd say this is phase one LUT implementation and a way of conforming to industry standard to make RED log look more like sony, arri, BMD, and all the other flavors of log out there that might be LUT friendly.

Does se not matter to me, I don't expose for luts, I'm a histogram man. :)
Click to expand...

:iagree:
 
this forum will explode when the new firmware is out ;-)

all back to the start : new footage, new threads ... ready, go.
 
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