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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

A Few Things

S

SF Geek

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I have the camera. I like the camera. I can deal with its quirks and glitches. What I can't deal with is RedCine. The camera may be out of beta but its workflow sure isn't. I'm sure Red Alert is more stable, but the transcoding times already take long enough in RedCine, when it works.

Anyone at Red. This is a big problem for me when I'm trying to sell the camera system. You said a new version would be ready last week. And whenever I ask about it I get moved to 4k workflow land where nobody from Red seems to go.

This is a problem for anyone with the Red who can't afford Scratch, which seems to be at least 95%. Could someone at Red help me out here. I'm not just some poster. I bought the system.
 
I can understand a concern for the RedCine/ReAlert 4k workflow, but once you said "Scratch", I'm wondering if your expectations are appropriate.

Not to knock Redcine or praise Scratch, but I'm curious, are you expecting RedCine to do what Scratch does?

Have you worked with Scratch or any other system like it?

By the way, I'm not expert myself, but even I don't put RedCine and Scratch "together".
 
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I'm expecting to output my footage without deleting folders or all of the clips except for one. I would like to be able to delete clips in Redcine without selecting each one individually and then clicking delete and then clicking yes. That's what I want.
 
We are internally testing a new version of REDCINE. Once we feel it is ready for beta release (therefore replacing the current beta version of REDCINE), we will do so.

If you ever have REDCINE questions, yes, it is a community-supported beta software via REDUSER. But, feel free to contact our internal workflow expert, Kevin Stanley (also his REDUSER handle so you can PM him). As far as no one from RED going to 4k Workflow, I see in this this thread ( http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9098 ) Kevin has posts in there as do you. Kevin is the RED man for 4k workflow and I know he posts in there as frequently as he can.

BC
 
Can't wait for the official release of REDCine, when it gets out of Beta mode. Hoping that is NAB this year, and also hoping it is a new version with many new feature improvements.

Barring that, I still vote for REDCine Pro, 'the $499 app that does all the little things you wished REDCine would do.' This doesn't seem like RED's style though. They'll just make the official release of REDCine kick ass. (and release it by NAB....right guys:matrix: )
 
We take delivery of our RED ONE this week. Post workflow is the number one issue my clients ask me about. There needs to be a solid, and reliable solution. I need to be able to assure my clients that post is not an problem.

Red Team, please assure us that this is a TOP PRIORITY.
 
jing said:
I can understand a concern for the RedCine/ReAlert 4k workflow, but once you said "Scratch", I'm wondering if your expectations are appropriate.
Not to knock Redcine or praise Scratch, but I'm curious, are you expecting RedCine to do what Scratch does?
Click to expand...

There are -many- systems which are more powerful/more sold/more expensive/better price than a scratch, and it makes -absolutely- no sense to force the over >99.9% users in the professional postproduction to a system they dont want/need/have. Hey, its a nice software, but it even cant display 4K on a 4K projector, you -must- have again another system to show red via such a projector. Also, most -customers- of red footage dont have a red, but they sure do have -many- DI systems, and they use 35mm and hdcam with it since years/decades and want us when we offer red to make it working for then, not to put em out of business.

Reds workflow is simply missing 2 things:
a) An -stable- way to process EDL to work with Avid, Adobe, discreet, quantel etc who make the -huge- majority of todays professional postproduction.
b) The open codec. It is THE mayor headache that all windows, all linux houses are locked out of the redraw, and also any application besides one out of 4K.

But Red already has reacted, and:
- clearly stated that the codec will be openend within the next 8 weeks or so, - introduced redline, which is a great step toward an open workflow and they confirmed that it will be out soon on windows as well
- announced that the QT wrappers will be available to windows soon as well.
- what is missing from the puzzle is EDL support (somewhere, no matter if redcine, redline, whatever)


But i have to agree that the postproduction "workflow" as it is now is the by far -weakest- aspect in red basing shooting. Its impossible to give the camera to a dp without talking for -hours- with editor, vfx supervisor, producer etc and often multimillion facilities which digest 65mm 35mm hdcam hdcam SR and have millions in the most powerful systems who -want- to shoot red decide against it, only because the workflow isn´t working for them. It makes no sense at all to need a $60.000 software CD in order to conform an edit from a $20.000 camera, and all this costs the red camera a lot of momentum in the posthouses buzz.

I think most people here understand that the main focus was getting the camera right and now debugging redcine. but now, the production reality comes in, and that means that most folks working with red footage dont own a red and they are still locked out for the most part, and the missing part, an totally basic edl->redcine xml translation isn´t complex work (again, BASIC edl is more than enough, lets forget about wipes/dissolves/speedramps etc).

The headstart for final cut pro for offline editing 4K and scratch for conforming R3D meanwhile, i have to say that, begins to worry people, as it is highly interfering with most posthouses strategy and -existing- investments.
 
All of my friends, camera people, and clients know that I ordered a RED. The first thing that has been coming up is "I here there is no post solution for it". And to be honest I am confused about it too. What do I tell them? And what is the best solution presently available for 4K raw footage and 2K raw footage?

Thanks!
 
Ah, ok.

All of these points are valid. I'm curious to know what Red will do to address the post concerns.

SF Geek said:
I'm expecting to output my footage without deleting folders or all of the clips except for one. I would like to be able to delete clips in Redcine without selecting each one individually and then clicking delete and then clicking yes. That's what I want.
Click to expand...
 
laguun - out of curiosity, is there something specific that you feel is missing, other than a EDL->XML conversion utility like iBloom's RedTrip? I ask because you seem to be well-informed, and I haven't had time to sift through all of the 18 billion workflow threads.

When people complain about there being "no post workflow", is it specifically the extra steps (#2 & #4) below that feel too "clunky" for pro use?

1) Shoot 4k r3d
2) Transcode to whatever, and add metadata (Metacheater), deliver to editor
3) Edit as usual
4) Matchback EDL to RedCine (RedTrip equivalent)
5) Crank out dpx's, deliver to colorist
6) Grade as usual
7) Conform as usual
 
meeotch said:
laguun - out of curiosity, is there something specific that you feel is missing, other than a EDL->XML conversion utility like iBloom's RedTrip?
Click to expand...
reds posts workflow is getting better and better - however the puzzle is missing some important parts:
a) open & documented redcode raw format (according to jim pre/at NAB)
b) QT and/or AVI wrapper crossplatform (QT wrapper due "soon" according to red)
c) redline crossplatform (also "soon", according to red)
d) EDL input RC (no comment from red yet)
e) metacheater style metadata export in RC (no comment from red yet)

meeotch said:
When people complain about there being "no post workflow", is it specifically the extra steps (#2 & #4) below that feel too "clunky" for pro use?
1) Shoot 4k r3d
2) Transcode to whatever, and add metadata (Metacheater), deliver to editor
3) Edit as usual
4) Matchback EDL to RedCine (RedTrip equivalent)
5) Crank out dpx's, deliver to colorist
6) Grade as usual
7) Conform as usual
Click to expand...

Its less the "clunkyness" - the problem are mainly
- that besides us savy folks here (hey, i am mainly producer), most customers dont know anything about point 2/4 and many even dont understand it ("why cant we simply use edl?").
- your point 2 (transcoding) which makes perfectly sense in -larger- productions (as fullfeature etc) is unnecessary in other scenarios, and many manufacturers want to integrate it but aren allowed yet
- there still is not a singe one-stop native finishing system (as smoke, ds nitris, quantel Gq series or even Adobe CS3) for RGB 4k/2K R3D, but only a split offline/conform workflow which requires two computers, two workflows etc etc.
- that RC is still pretty buggy and unstable on most systems
- and finally that -really- helpful 3hrd parties who support red are not allowed to do so, cineform being one of the prominent examples and the buyers of red learned that way that red doesnt want support yet, as there are agreements we didnt know of (we hab been told ibc 07, but not officially by red).

the red camera is great, i cant repeat that often enough, but the workflow is a minefield still and leaves lots of uncertainties still. Also, without native redcode raw support and/or working edl-capable RC many potential customers are simply not willing to move away from hdcam (we offer that) or 35mm (we offer that as well) pipelines. Also, few of them have such massive storgae in house as we do, and therefore need dnaxhd/redcode raw/cineform or something similar.
 
meeotch said:
Easy to say for someone who's scheduled for delivery just two weeks before NAB. :tongue: I can imagine there are about 1250 people who have a different perspective, though...
Click to expand...
thats the problem...
 
After carefully considering all these problems, our DP went and bought a Sony Ex1. Workflow is easy with Sony Vegas $496. Now, he can view the clip immediately, post is easy, images are full 1080p/24p.
I am not trying to knock RED. I hope RED will solve all the post production bottleneck soon.
 
most customers dont know anything about point 2/4 and many even dont understand it ("why cant we simply use edl?").
Click to expand...

I think this is what I was trying to get at. That is - the rest of your points above are definitely true, but if we narrow the question down to, "What currently makes Red hard to sell to a production?" (as SFGeek was mentioning), then what are the missing pieces?

It feels like #2 and #4 could be "hidden" from the client by performing those steps on "this side". Basically, clients are used to getting a tape with dailies for editing, and then doing a color session from an EDL + original camera material. In this case, they're getting quicktimes instead of a tape, and doing a color session from an EDL + dpx's. It feels like this shouldn't be such a "hard sell"... it's definitely harder on the Red owner / operator side, because of the extra steps involved - but it should be possible to make those steps transparent to the client, just as a lab will make dailies transfer + sound sync transparent in a film workflow.

But again - perhaps I'm missing something? (For instance, having to come back for dpx's is sort of an "extra step" - but then again, is it really that different than having a post house pull selects for grading?)
 
I must say I have a love/hate relationship with the RED due some of the shortcomings/buggy software. I love the image it produces and the possibility it offers...I hate the fact that the workflow is weak and buggy. I smile one day :biggrin: ....and curse the next day! :ranting2: But I guess that is the price we pay for technically being beta tester for the RED camera. Part of me wishes we would have waited before getting our cameras....Since half the time I can't output usable footage out of Redcine.... (locks up, crashes, black frames, garbled frames, long times etc...). I almost think they need to add more people to the RED team.... ;-)
 
meeotch said:
I think this is what I was trying to get at. That is - the rest of your points above are definitely true, but if we narrow the question down to, "What currently makes Red hard to sell to a production?" (as SFGeek was mentioning), then what are the missing pieces?

It feels like #2 and #4 could be "hidden" from the client by performing those steps on "this side". Basically, clients are used to getting a tape with dailies for editing, and then doing a color session from an EDL + original camera material. In this case, they're getting quicktimes instead of a tape, and doing a color session from an EDL + dpx's. It feels like this shouldn't be such a "hard sell"...
Click to expand...
most customers only want to bring the camera back and finish their digital files in their avids/discreets etc. and then the trouble begins. typically 1st off all RC wont work on the clients computer, according to murphys law it will work if he plans an offline and doesnt know about metadata, the ones using FCP are calling and asking "how do we feed the 4K 12 bit RGB into color from the QT wrapper", customers who plan -one- TB disk for their hour of uncompressed 4K (why? it was enough for one hour before?) - never underestimate the "it has to work", "TC EDL DONE", "it -always- worked that way" folks in our industry.

meeotch said:
it's definitely harder on the Red owner / operator side, because of the extra steps involved - but it should be possible to make those steps transparent to the client, just as a lab will make dailies transfer + sound sync transparent in a film workflow.
Click to expand...
sort of... the problem is that people basically expect the advantages of film and digital combined (as the camera itself is pretty close to that) also in the post workflow and get the combination of the different formats problems in post so far.
And with the current tools its pretty tough to troubleshoot them once they made the mistakes early on in the pipeline. I mostly get the answer "yeah, he already shot digital" if i ask if the DP has experience with red.
Luckily we will have headroom until april before the first larger and outhouse red shots come in, and our first 2 own red (so far we rented everytime, first time in october 2007) will allow us to demonstrate everything to the best customers w/o having to rent.

Another issue, logical, is that the postpipeline is in state of flux. You are talking to one customer why he shouldnt use cineforms R3D2DPX on build14 on telephone line A, then on line B another customer calls to tell you that he would like to run redline on an OSX on a PC, meanwhile customer C in the studio.... you get the idea. You can tell a bad pioneer by the arrows in the body, and a good pioneer is married to an squaw, but right now its pretty challenging to dodge all the arrows moving forward :)


meeotch said:
But again - perhaps I'm missing something? (For instance, having to come back for dpx's is sort of an "extra step" - but then again, is it really that different than having a post house pull selects for grading?)
Click to expand...
That customers have to come back is indeed an real problem, especially compared to hdcam. They used to rent the hdcam camera, a hdcam vcr, done. work, master to tape. Now they have to come to us, we transcode to hdcam (additional stop) or to dnaxhd (additional stop). Then for the hq-debayer they have top come -another- time. I am not complaining about all this additional business, but the goal should be that the customers can, as before in digital formats, work without us -and- benefit, as before in film formats, from the power of raw on their systems. Other cameras as the SI 2K seem to be closer to this ideal, but i hope red will focus more on the post now that the 14/15 camera revisions really work cool.
 
3xm said:
I must say I have a love/hate relationship with the RED due some of the shortcomings/buggy software. I love the image it produces and the possibility it offers...I hate the fact that the workflow is weak and buggy. I smile one day :biggrin: ....and curse the next day! :ranting2: But I guess that is the price we pay for technically being beta tester for the RED camera. Part of me wishes we would have waited before getting our cameras....Since half the time I can't output usable footage out of Redcine.... (locks up, crashes, black frames, garbled frames, long times etc...). I almost think they need to add more people to the RED team.... ;-)
Click to expand...

Or offer a redcine deluxe for some golddollars.
 
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