A Camera As A Gift

[Michael Olsen]

I hope that this thread isn't too far off topic for REDUSER. I'm posting here because the knowledgeable is diverse and the replies are almost always insightful and respectful, nor do I expect this specific discussion to generate vitriolic comments.

--

I am blessed to have a fiancée who, among other talents and beauties, shares my interest in cinema. Recently, she has become interested in lomography and the like and asked me what I thought about getting a small hand-held motion film camera for chronicling at least some our life together. This would make a perfect wedding present.

At this point, I've grown up learning virtually everything digital. I've read some about different film cameras and the nature of film and so forth, but I have no mindset as to what brand or type of camera we would be looking for. As I mentioned earlier, it needs to be fairly portable, capable of being shot handheld by a petite woman without difficulty. Pure image quality is not a necessity - in fact, it may be a preferable if the camera has a little bit of personality to it.

I am also concerned about nailing down a post process. Obviously, it would be sent to a lab, processed, and returned. I think she'd like to have the original acquisition print, as well as the DI in something like 2K ProRes 4444, or whatever would be appropriate for editing and digitally printing (DVD, BLU-RAY) depending upon the format.

I'm certainly open to ideas here, and welcome any and all comments and contributions.

--

I should add that both I and my fiancée understand that digital acquisition may be simpler, cheaper, and quicker. But she'd really like to give film a go and I'm interested to experience it for myself as well.

 

[Mark Collins]

Aaton makes excellent lightweight cameras that are easy to use and simple to put together and lug around.

 

[David W. Jones]

Is your budget more in line with a Eclair ACL 2 Super 16, a Bolex H16Rex, or???

 

[Michael Olsen]

Is your budget more in line with a Eclair ACL 2 Super 16, a Bolex H16Rex, or???

Honestly, I'm not even sure where the budget begins for these sort of cameras.

The $25,000 for the A-Minima is a bit steep (especially considering my desire to purchase a Scarlet...)

I'm not opposed to 8mm, either - I just don't know anything about it! And to be perfectly honest, she'd probably prefer a refurbished vintage camera than a brand new German (or French, as the case may be) designed camera with timecode, etc. etc.

 

[Michael Olsen]

She seems to have taken a liking to the idea of the Bolex and the price seems to be about right ($2000-$6000).

Are there any other similar recommendations to be made?

 

[hunterrichards]

one place to call: cinelicious.tv

 

[Shawn Booth]

Michael - you can find cheaper Bolex cameras.

8mm is also nice nowadays and cheap too. Check out www.pro8mm.com

 

[Michael Olsen]

Michael - you can find cheaper Bolex cameras.

8mm is also nice nowadays and cheap too. Check out www.pro8mm.com

Wow Shawn! That looks like a great resource. I took a look at their cameras - both 8mm and 16mm. This is turning out to be a very fun process.

 

[Fran Kuhn]

Michael,

I have been shooting with an A-Minima for about seven years, mostly used to document my daughter growing up. She is eight years old and I have shot about 22,000 feet so far. It is an astonishingly great camera, very small and portable, discreet and very quiet, and it allows you to change magazines mid-roll if you need a different filmstock. The downside is the initial cost of a new camera (although I have see a used A-Minima offered for as little as $5,000) and the PL-mount lenses, although it can be easily fitted with an Aaton-built Nikon mount allowing the use of affordable still camera lenses.

If the A-Minima cost is too high, I'd recommend the Bolex RX5 with a set of three or four Switar prime lenses from 10mm to maybe 75mm. I have one of these cameras and it's fun and easy to use. It makes a lovely image that has a completely different character than any of my digital cameras can produce. The RX5 can also be converted to Super 16 for about $1500. Try contacting Deiter Schaefer at ProCam/Bolex USA for more info on the conversion: www.bolexusa.com

As for Super 8, I also shoot with a Beaulieu 4008 ZMII. My advice when buying anything S8 is to always get a second and third opinion before buying from any dealer to be sure you’re not paying double what you should. In my experience, I’ve found that there are some places that charge outrageous amounts for their cameras. You can get a great S8 camera for a very reasonable amount if you shop around. Bernie O'Doherty at Super16 Inc might be able to advise you before you purchase something and he's a great technician who can repair most any camera, including Super 8 cameras.

Hope this helps.

-Fran

 

[Michael Olsen]

Michael,

I have been shooting with an A-Minima for about seven years, mostly used to document my daughter growing up. She is eight years old and I have shot about 22,000 feet so far. It is an astonishingly great camera, very small and portable, discreet and very quiet, and it allows you to change magazines mid-roll if you need a different filmstock. The downside is the initial cost of a new camera (although I have see a used A-Minima offered for as little as $5,000) and the PL-mount lenses, although it can be easily fitted with an Aaton-built Nikon mount allowing the use of affordable still camera lenses.

If the A-Minima cost is too high, I'd recommend the Bolex RX5 with a set of three or four Switar prime lenses from 10mm to maybe 75mm. I have one of these cameras and it's fun and easy to use. It makes a lovely image that has a completely different character than any of my digital cameras can produce. The RX5 can also be converted to Super 16 for about $1500. Try contacting Deiter Schaefer at ProCam/Bolex USA for more info on the conversion: www.bolexusa.com

As for Super 8, I also shoot with a Beaulieu 4008 ZMII. My advice when buying anything S8 is to always get a second and third opinion before buying from any dealer to be sure you’re not paying double what you should. In my experience, I’ve found that there are some places that charge outrageous amounts for their cameras. You can get a great S8 camera for a very reasonable amount if you shop around. Bernie O'Doherty at Super16 Inc might be able to advise you before you purchase something and he's a great technician who can repair most any camera, including Super 8 cameras.

Hope this helps.

-Fran

Fran,

It absolutely does. Thank you so very much for your post. Personally, I'd love to get the A-Minima. If I can find a way to make that happen I will. Buying new is definitely not an option at that price point, but I will certainly keep my eyes open for used cameras.

I also appreciate your input regarding S16 and S8 cameras. There is a lot out there and every post like yours really makes a difference to someone like me who really knows nothing about this part of the field.

 

[Noah Kadner]

Yeah lugging around a 16mm film camera is a really expensive and gear intensive prospect. If you just want to dabble in the idea of film, I'd also suggest a Super 8mm camera. They're not that expensive, you can process and edit film in your own home with minimally expensive lab costs/gear and it's fun. You also get 99% of the photographic experience of working with 16mm/35mm gear.

The Beaulieu 4008 is a gorgeous old school camera that is a sweet gift to share with someone special, but you won't get into massive debt acquiring or using it:

http://www.pro8mm.com/Merchant5/mer...1&Product_Code=ClassicCamera&Category_Code=S8

or the Pro1014:

http://www.pro8mm.com/Merchant5/mer...e=01&Product_Code=1014camera&Category_Code=S8

Noah

 

[Ed Carlton]

I hope that this thread isn't too far off topic for REDUSER. I'm posting here because the knowledgeable is diverse and the replies are almost always insightful and respectful, nor do I expect this specific discussion to generate vitriolic comments.

--

I am blessed to have a fiancée who, among other talents and beauties, shares my interest in cinema. Recently, she has become interested in lomography and the like and asked me what I thought about getting a small hand-held motion film camera for chronicling at least some our life together. This would make a perfect wedding present.

At this point, I've grown up learning virtually everything digital. I've read some about different film cameras and the nature of film and so forth, but I have no mindset as to what brand or type of camera we would be looking for. As I mentioned earlier, it needs to be fairly portable, capable of being shot handheld by a petite woman without difficulty. Pure image quality is not a necessity - in fact, it may be a preferable if the camera has a little bit of personality to it.

I am also concerned about nailing down a post process. Obviously, it would be sent to a lab, processed, and returned. I think she'd like to have the original acquisition print, as well as the DI in something like 2K ProRes 4444, or whatever would be appropriate for editing and digitally printing (DVD, BLU-RAY) depending upon the format.

I'm certainly open to ideas here, and welcome any and all comments and contributions.

--

I should add that both I and my fiancée understand that digital acquisition may be simpler, cheaper, and quicker. But she'd really like to give film a go and I'm interested to experience it for myself as well.

Ill bet you could get an Aminima, 416 or Bolex in great condition. I hear film cameras are obsolete. LOL, Actually they are really reasonable, even new, since no one is buying any used cameras now. For real!

 

[Fran Kuhn]

Yeah lugging around a 16mm film camera is a really expensive and gear intensive prospect. If you just want to dabble in the idea of film, I'd also suggest a Super 8mm camera. They're not that expensive, you can process and edit film in your own home with minimally expensive lab costs/gear and it's fun. You also get 99% of the photographic experience of working with 16mm/35mm gear.

The Beaulieu 4008 is a gorgeous old school camera that is a sweet gift to share with someone special, but you won't get into massive debt acquiring or using it:

http://www.pro8mm.com/Merchant5/mer...1&Product_Code=ClassicCamera&Category_Code=S8

or the Pro1014:

http://www.pro8mm.com/Merchant5/mer...e=01&Product_Code=1014camera&Category_Code=S8

Noah

Hi Noah,

In my own experience, once you acquire a camera, shooting Super 8 for casual and occasional use isn't really that much less expensive than 16mm. Especially if you get 16mm short-ends or re-cans which are easy to find.

More importantly, with Super 8, you have fewer choices of films, labs and telecine. I know that every time I try to decide which camera to pick up, I usually go with 16mm for this reason. I shoot the Super 8 only when I want the classic home-movie look, because at the end of the day, S8 nets out close to the cost of 16mm. Just something to think about.

BTW my A-Minima fits in a small Domke Bag, it goes pretty much anywhere my Beaulieu can go with even less drama. The Beaulieu (and even my Bolex RX5) gets all sorts of looks and comments, the Aaton just looks like some cheap video camera and is so quiet no one notices it. I've been able to get that thing into some of the most out-of-the way places. That's part of what makes it so much fun: a true professional, production-grade 16mm film camera you can carry in a small backpack!

-Fran

 

[Michael Totten]

I hope that this thread isn't too far off topic for REDUSER. I'm posting here because the knowledgeable is diverse and the replies are almost always insightful and respectful, nor do I expect this specific discussion to generate vitriolic comments.

--

I am blessed to have a fiancée who, among other talents and beauties, shares my interest in cinema. Recently, she has become interested in lomography and the like and asked me what I thought about getting a small hand-held motion film camera for chronicling at least some our life together. This would make a perfect wedding present.

At this point, I've grown up learning virtually everything digital. I've read some about different film cameras and the nature of film and so forth, but I have no mindset as to what brand or type of camera we would be looking for. As I mentioned earlier, it needs to be fairly portable, capable of being shot handheld by a petite woman without difficulty. Pure image quality is not a necessity - in fact, it may be a preferable if the camera has a little bit of personality to it.

I am also concerned about nailing down a post process. Obviously, it would be sent to a lab, processed, and returned. I think she'd like to have the original acquisition print, as well as the DI in something like 2K ProRes 4444, or whatever would be appropriate for editing and digitally printing (DVD, BLU-RAY) depending upon the format.

I'm certainly open to ideas here, and welcome any and all comments and contributions.

--

I should add that both I and my fiancée understand that digital acquisition may be simpler, cheaper, and quicker. But she'd really like to give film a go and I'm interested to experience it for myself as well.

Go super 8mm. There's a company in Burbank called Pro8mm. They sell cameras there (they've widened their camera gates to 16:9) and sell Kodak Vision 3 film stock... plus the telecine on a Davinci to ProRes 4:4:4:4 in HD.
The result is really really nice.
The cameras are small...
I like the Canon 1014 (great piece of glass) and not as expensive as the Beulieu.

 

[Fran Kuhn]

Go super 8mm. There's a company in Burbank called Pro8mm. They sell cameras there (they've widened their camera gates to 16:9) and sell Kodak Vision 3 film stock... plus the telecine on a Davinci to ProRes 4:4:4:4 in HD.
The result is really really nice.
The cameras are small...
I like the Canon 1014 (great piece of glass) and not as expensive as the Beulieu.

Hi Michael,

Pro8mm sells their refurbished Canon 1014XLS for $1,995. Or about $200 more than what I paid for a near-new Bolex RX5 body and four immaculate Switar Preset lenses (10mm, 26mm, 50mm and 75mm). And about $1,400 more than I paid for my Beaulieu 4008 ZMII. Plus, the Max8 gate modification is another $995, so almost $3,000 for the complete camera. I'm sure the Pro8mm camera is worth that to some people, but it is something to consider.

BTW I do use some of the Pro8mm re-packaged Kodak Vision stocks, just shot three rolls last week, two 50D (01) and a 250D (07). I do like this film a lot and the carts seem to run through the camera flawlessly.

-Fran

 

[Noah Kadner]

Hi Noah,

In my own experience, once you acquire a camera, shooting Super 8 for casual and occasional use isn't really that much less expensive than 16mm. Especially if you get 16mm short-ends or re-cans which are easy to find.

More importantly, with Super 8, you have fewer choices of films, labs and telecine. I know that every time I try to decide which camera to pick up, I usually go with 16mm for this reason. I shoot the Super 8 only when I want the classic home-movie look, because at the end of the day, S8 nets out close to the cost of 16mm. Just something to think about.

BTW my A-Minima fits in a small Domke Bag, it goes pretty much anywhere my Beaulieu can go with even less drama. The Beaulieu (and even my Bolex RX5) gets all sorts of looks and comments, the Aaton just looks like some cheap video camera and is so quiet no one notices it. I've been able to get that thing into some of the most out-of-the way places. That's part of what makes it so much fun: a true professional, production-grade 16mm film camera you can carry in a small backpack!

-Fran

It's not just the stock and lab costs- which are definitely a lot more than Super8mm- it's that you can't edit your film on film at home without spending a fortune say on an old KEM. Then where are you going to put it? A little Super 8 mm editing table would fit in any closet and cost maybe a few hundred bucks tops. I'm a fan of 16mm- or at least I was back in the day but if it's just for fun- I wouldn't want to waste the dough for 16mm which is getting you not far away from what some labs are wanting to charge for 35mm...

Noah

 

[Fran Kuhn]

It's not just the stock and lab costs- which are definitely a lot more than Super8mm- it's that you can't edit your film on film at home without spending a fortune say on an old KEM. Then where are you going to put it? A little Super 8 mm editing table would fit in any closet and cost maybe a few hundred bucks tops. I'm a fan of 16mm- or at least I was back in the day but if it's just for fun- I wouldn't want to waste the dough for 16mm which is getting you not far away from what some labs are wanting to charge for 35mm...

Noah

Hi Noah,

200 foot A-Minima roll of Vision 3 Super 16mm film (about 5 1/2 minutes @ 24fps) is about $78, about $25 per roll to process at Fotokem; total of $103

150 feet (3 rolls) of Vision 3 neg at Pro8mm (about 7 minutes @24fps) is $30 per roll with processing, total of $90.

The Super 8 is $13 less and about a minute and a half longer, but in my world it's not really all that much difference if you want the quality of 16mm. But here's the real issue: The telecine transfer cost is about the same for either 16mm or S8, plus with the smaller format I can only choose a transfer house (and a colorist) with a Super 8 gate. And there aren't many of those around.

I agree with you, S8 is a bit less expensive, but I've found that unless you're shooting thousands and thousands of feet, it's not really that much less than 16mm. And that's before you go shopping for the less expensive re-cans and short ends, which always seem to be abundant in 16mm. And, for the record, I absolutely love shooting Super 8 and the unique look you can get with the format. It can be absolutely amazing. I always think of the flashback scenes in Cinema Paradiso whenever I pick up that Beaulieu.

Also, this logic is all based on editing in FCP or similar. I've never done (or even considered) editing with the film itself.

Best,

-Fran

EDIT: BTW the film processing at Pro8mm does not include prep for telecine, which, the last time I asked, is an additional $10 per roll, brings the cost to $120 for three rolls. The cost for processing the 16mm at Fotokem includes prep.

 

[Andy Jarosz]

I'm just gonna throw this website out here for 16mm, easily the cheapest place I could find. Their HD telecine is meh, but the prints come out just fine.

http://www.movielab.com/

 

[D Fuller]

While you're looking, take a look at the Reaulieu R16 16mm camera. They are one of the nicest-to-handhold cameras I've ever used, and they make great pics if they're in good shape.

 

[G Lap]

What a great thread Michael, I'm becoming hooked. Haven't found a used A-Minima yet though.