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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

8k Workflow - How?

J

Jack Chapman

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So I am interested in hearing what machines everyone has and how they are handling the 8k in post? Is everybody shooting a 4k proxy in camera? I'm about to pull the trigger but weighing up the costs for a new editing machine.
 
Keep in mind that you can debayer R3D in 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, etc. resolution while you edit. In addition, you can edit on a 2K timeline and then change the timeline to 8K/4K/whatever and debayer at full resolution for your export.

I edit 6K R3Ds in Resolve at 1/4 resolution on a 2K timeline and export 4K full resolution.
 
Thats a good point. Definitely can see it bogging the computer down still. What machine you using?
 
Jack Chapman said:
Thats a good point. Definitely can see it bogging the computer down still. What machine you using?
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A 3.5 year old custom build, originally built for BMCC footage. i7-3930K 3.2GHz 6-core, 32GB RAM, GTX 770 4GB, 2x2TB (4TB RAID-0) HDD. Details on my website on an old blog post.
 
First, go out and buy a $20 million post facility...
 
Jack Chapman said:
Is that what you have?
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No, but it'd be much easier to do a full 8K end-to-end workflow with a $20 million facility. And a lot of experienced employees. And many Petabytes of storage space.
 
Jack Chapman said:
So I am interested in hearing what machines everyone has and how they are handling the 8k in post? Is everybody shooting a 4k proxy in camera? I'm about to pull the trigger but weighing up the costs for a new editing machine.
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Define "8K in post".

We are editing and grading 8K raw directly with 4K master and HD RT preview without any fuss.
 
Jack Chapman said:
So I am interested in hearing what machines everyone has and how they are handling the 8k in post? Is everybody shooting a 4k proxy in camera? I'm about to pull the trigger but weighing up the costs for a new editing machine.
Click to expand...

What NLE are you using?
 
Even with Premiere's new Ingest settings, worst case - you should be able to Proxy your 8K material down to something more manageable / editable overnight and flip the switch back to 8K RAW when you want a final export.
 
For the sake of simplicity, workflow management really matters when working in/ or under the constraints of post/editorial/finishing facilities. Time is money, seamless workflow, project media sharing, and delivery are at a premium.

If the senario is one or two people wearing multiple hats (shooter, editor, grader, etc) , workflow style can be what you deem it be. Totally work with native RAW from start to finish. Work with transcoded footage and reconform at the end. Nothing is written in stone.

Postside, the practical limits will be overall hardware efficiency, editing & grading proficiency of the operator and client delivery constraints Each of these areas will weaken or strengthen workflow based on planning and execution styles What clearly works with short form will not be the same recipe for long form work. That's why and how post facilities are able manage and absorb various leels of project difficulty that walk thru the door.

As suggested, learning to work in a reduced resolutions in the preferred NLE is the smart approach. The strongest GPU (s) and CPU(s) for decode, display and render that can be afforded is the way to go, bearing in mind each software tool will use the hardware resoutces differently. That said, having a RED Rocket in the workstation is the least pain free of working with full debayer RED media. Anything less depends on each ones pain threshold either for the expense of the machine or the time spent buffering, toggling back & forth debayer settings and other render related scenarios. It's definitely helpful to evaluate a fluid 1:1 moving image i.e. sharpness, noise, grain structure, focus, etc.
 
M.Halsell said:
For the sake of simplicity, workflow management really matters when working in/ or under the constraints of post/editorial/finishing facilities. Time is money, seamless workflow, project media sharing, and delivery are at a premium.

If the senario is one or two people wearing multiple hats (shooter, editor, grader, etc) , workflow style can be what you deem it be. Totally work with native RAW from start to finish. Work with transcoded footage and reconform at the end. Nothing is written in stone.

Postside, the practical limits will be overall hardware efficiency, editing & grading proficiency of the operator and client delivery constraints Each of these areas will weaken or strengthen workflow based on planning and execution styles What clearly works with short form will not be the same recipe for long form work. That's why and how post facilities are able manage and absorb various leels of project difficulty that walk thru the door.

As suggested, learning to work in a reduced resolutions in the preferred NLE is the smart approach. The strongest GPU (s) and CPU(s) for decode, display and render that can be afforded is the way to go, bearing in mind each software tool will use the hardware resoutces differently. That said, having a RED Rocket in the workstation is the least pain free of working with full debayer RED media. Anything less depends on each ones pain threshold either for the expense of the machine or the time spent buffering, toggling back & forth debayer settings and other render related scenarios. It's definitely helpful to evaluate a fluid 1:1 moving image i.e. sharpness, noise, grain structure, focus, etc.
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Thanks for this. I guess I am just a little nervous stepping into the 8k world as like you said I am one of those people who do wear many hats. Good to know there is a way whether it is working with premiere debaying the footage or transcoding if it bogs down a system.
 
The latest version of PPro has an actual finally really working proxy system...

Bring in your footage, create a ingest preset in media encoder (like DNxHR 1080p, not the default ones). Let PPro go off and create proxies for all the source files. Then if you customise the viewer (add button) you can add a proxy button. Just press that on and off to swap between full R3D and proxy. So far, touch wood, it's been remarkably seamless.

It also allows you to situate the proxies elsewhere, so locally on a laptop, R3Ds on a server, if you want to nip off and edit down the local coffee shop come back and swap them back.

From a vfx view, well that's different. I can't see anyone working in 8K. I will work in 4K though. I see 8K as a great source for 4K but even so i can't see a situation where i would necessarily want access to the 8K source. You're looking at lens aberrations and optical diffraction at that resolution. I think it's fantastic to get that and the 4K masters derived look better for it. One thing to bear in mind is that 8K in motion, at 1/48th is going to be pretty motion blurred anyway, let alone hitting critical focus.

cheers
Paul
 
paulcurtis said:
The latest version of PPro has an actual finally really working proxy system...

Bring in your footage, create a ingest preset in media encoder (like DNxHR 1080p, not the default ones). Let PPro go off and create proxies for all the source files. Then if you customise the viewer (add button) you can add a proxy button. Just press that on and off to swap between full R3D and proxy. So far, touch wood, it's been remarkably seamless.

It also allows you to situate the proxies elsewhere, so locally on a laptop, R3Ds on a server, if you want to nip off and edit down the local coffee shop come back and swap them back.

From a vfx view, well that's different. I can't see anyone working in 8K. I will work in 4K though. I see 8K as a great source for 4K but even so i can't see a situation where i would necessarily want access to the 8K source. You're looking at lens aberrations and optical diffraction at that resolution. I think it's fantastic to get that and the 4K masters derived look better for it. One thing to bear in mind is that 8K in motion, at 1/48th is going to be pretty motion blurred anyway, let alone hitting critical focus.

cheers
Paul
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I've been working with 8K r3ds this week, but this sounds like a great proxy option too. I'll have to check it out.
 
FCP X. Promise Pegasus tb2 raid. Maxed Macpro 2014 no transcoding or creation of optimized or proxy media, straight r3d edit of 8k and other red resolutions, smooth and no poblems. On 2012 Macbookpro Retina, ingest then create proxy media in 8k timeline. No problem. (Latest fcpx update essential.)
 
Kevin DeOliveira said:
I've been working with 8K r3ds this week, but this sounds like a great proxy option too. I'll have to check it out.
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I think it is but by default there are only two very low res ingest options. You need to go to media encoder create and save some more presets, then you can get some great results

cheers
Paul
 
I can barely handle R3D 6K. Upgrading would demand me to increase it even more. I think that if you are a solo content provider, cinematographer, director etc. like myself, you have to be realistic with everything 8K comes with. The faster computers get, the faster regular 6K R3D workflows get. For a series like House of Cards and movies like Gone Girl, they had extremely expensive setups which could handle DPX 6K workflow in realtime using Premiere and After Effects. With upcoming computers you might be able to handle 6K at half that speed for a quarter of the cost, but 8K will just status-quo such investment costs. First off I do not have the money now to be able to upgrade, but I have enough to seriously do a post production upgrade and if I do I will probaby triple my efficiency having a greater edge on the market than if I would just get the 8K.

It all comes down to what you are providing with your camera. If you need 8K then you may want to charge for 8K in order to support your post production costs to be able to deal with it.

The problem here is that I'm not sure solo content providers need more than 6K at this time. If you have clients that need 8K or that level of quality for the final 4K output, they probably have the money to do a production with a rental camera instead OR pay you the extra mile for your 8K which in return finance your post production system. If you only work for yourself and do your own thing, then 8K might be overkill in my opinion. It's a quality that might fit in theatres and similar and as a solo content provider that's rarely something your work ends up at, even so 6K is enough Ks for such delivery.

So, very seriously consider what your market is. Are you doing high end production that benefit from 8K acquisition and post production? Are you doing content for television or web? Are you doing feature films in the scale that require 8K? Television, web, mid-grade commercials, independent films etc. won't need more than 6K for some years to come. Higher than that; high end commercials, high end movies, Streaming TV-series (Game of Thrones sized) etc. would benefit from 8K. But most of them probably would benefit to hire their cameras from larger rental companies because of the level of backup service they can provide.

So, with all the excitement around 8K, just step back a little and figure out if 8K actually benefits you or if 6K is enough. If you have the money for 8K but not much left for post production, then 6K with a little more money for a better post production system is the better way to go.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
I can barely handle R3D 6K. Upgrading would demand me to increase it even more. I think that if you are a solo content provider, cinematographer, director etc. like myself, you have to be realistic with everything 8K comes with. The faster computers get, the faster regular 6K R3D workflows get. For a series like House of Cards and movies like Gone Girl, they had extremely expensive setups which could handle DPX 6K workflow in realtime using Premiere and After Effects. With upcoming computers you might be able to handle 6K at half that speed for a quarter of the cost, but 8K will just status-quo such investment costs. First off I do not have the money now to be able to upgrade, but I have enough to seriously do a post production upgrade and if I do I will probaby triple my efficiency having a greater edge on the market than if I would just get the 8K.
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IMHO It's more the data rates than anything else. And 8K rates are comparably to 6K rates depending on redcode. So most people shoot 8K with more compression than 6K for example. Overall the rates aren't *that* dissimilar.

The debayer process for real time would decimate the image, hence all the 1/2 and 1/4 settings.

So for straight editing it doesn't seem so bad. I've seen 'normal' playback on a standard i7 from a year or two back, off a network here (10gbe, not a san). I don't think it's as scary as it seems. Then you also have the fall back of proxies should you need too.

And as mentioned above i don't think any post house would work in native 8K and i can't see 8K delivery for anything right now. It's perfect for 4K delivery.

cheers
Paul
 
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