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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

8K CF Weapon Sensor Upgrade

Jarred Land said:
Mike you are comparing Aluminum Epic Dragon to Carbon Epic Dragon. The Weapon is Magnesium vs Carbon. The price difference is not in the materials. The majority of the difference in price is in the electronics between the MG and Carbon bodies. 8K works just fine in the magnesium bodies, I have one at NAB that I have been shooting with. If you hate CF for whatever reason, I can build you a 8K MG Weapon but the cost is going to be about the same.
Click to expand...
So with the necessary guts in the Mag Weapon it can be upgraded to 8k?
 
Just noticed:
Weapon CF (with or without 8K) = 2 year warranty
Weapon Mg = 1 year warranty
 
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Hey Christopher you need to look at it a bit differently. Yes Weapon is more expensive than an Epic. It does alot more. It handles 8K. It records multiple compressed formats at the same time. Not everyone can afford it. But it is a Dragon. The Dragon family has price points for everyone... and the Dragon family will continue to move forward. We have a spread of price points for everyone and that will continue.

I know $50k is alot of money and outside alot of people's reach. The Carbon Epic Dragon was the same price. And it is a great camera. The Weapon Dragon does not replace the Epic and Scarlet, it sits above it.

Elsie N said:
So with the necessary guts in the Mag Weapon it can be upgraded to 8k?
Click to expand...

Absolutely..... The Differences between the Carbon and the Mag mechanical bodies are the top plate and the side plates ( plus the sidekick is carbon on the CF Weapon )
 
Jarred Land said:
Mike you are comparing Aluminum Epic Dragon to Carbon Epic Dragon. The Weapon is Magnesium vs Carbon. The price difference is not in the materials. The majority of the difference in price is in the electronics between the MG and Carbon bodies. 8K works just fine in the magnesium bodies, I have one at NAB that I have been shooting with. If you hate CF for whatever reason, I can build you a 8K MG Weapon but the cost is going to be about the same.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the straight answer man. I was aware of the electronics difference; you have to have the horsepower to process 8K, and that's a whole other ball game. But that only leaves me more confused - given the $24k difference in price between Dragon and Carbon Dragon, with no difference in electronics. How does it stack up that a Dragon Carbon body is twice the price of a metal body, when the difference in Carbon Weapon is mostly down to the 8K-ready electronics? If there really is no significant 'carbon tax' in the Weapon pricing, that makes it a lot more palatable; that's just the cost of doing business at the 8K level and I can live with that. But that will leave some folks wondering why they paid a 100% carbon tax on Dragon bodies...! :D

I still think it would be better and clearer to present a straight price list for all options: Weapon & Weapon 8K, Carbon Weapon & Carbon Weapon 8K. That would make the whole thing transparent. You chose the body option and performance option that works for you.

(Because of course the other guys with the gripes will be those who say "Hey I fly my camera all the time; I'm a drone guy. I really need that CF, every ounce counts. But I'm strictly S35, I don't need, don't want, and won't pay for, the 8K-ready electronics they put in the Carbon Weapon. That's as much use to me as a chocolate condom!")

Mike
 
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Mike 'Fireman' Ross said:
Thanks for the straight answer man. I was aware of the electronics difference; you have to have the horsepower to process 8K, and that's a whole other ball game. But that only leaves me more confused - given the $24k difference in price between Dragon and Carbon Dragon, with no difference in electronics. How does it stack up that a Dragon Carbon body is twice the price of a metal body, when the difference in Carbon Weapon is mostly down to the 8K-ready electronics? If there really is no significant 'carbon tax' in the Weapon pricing, that makes it a lot more palatable; that's just the cost of doing business at the 8K level and I can live with that. But that will leave some folks wondering why they paid a 100% carbon tax on Dragon bodies...! :D

I still think it would be better and clearer to present a straight price list for all options: Weapon & Weapon 8K, Carbon Weapon & Carbon Weapon 8K. That would make the whole thing transparent. You chose the body option and performance option that works for you.

Mike
Click to expand...


You still are comparing Epic Carbon and Epic Aluminum against Weapon Magnesium and Weapon Carbon. You are missing the Magnesium part of it.. Weapon is Magnesium, not Aluminum like Epic. You need to run Magnesium machines very slow so they dont start a fire ( irony in there given you) .. it takes alot of time to work with. It goes through some different coating processes. It's a pain in the ass. But it has alot of advantages over aluminum. There is alot of Magnesium in the Carbon Weapon because it is such a good material for the application.

Now the gap between Epic Dragon Carbon and Epic Dragon Aluminum was in fact the materials... Specially since that is the first time we did Carbon Fiber. Alot of R&D capital went into getting that going.... and R&D is something everyone always seems to forget about.
 
Jarred Land said:
You still are comparing Epic Carbon and Epic Aluminum against Weapon Magnesium and Weapon Carbon. You are missing the Magnesium part of it.. Weapon is Magnesium, not Aluminum like Epic. You need to run Magnesium machines very slow so they dont start a fire ( irony in there given you) .. it takes alot of time to work with. It goes through some different coating processes. It's a pain in the ass. But it has alot of advantages over aluminum. There is alot of Magnesium in the Carbon Weapon because it is such a good material for the application.

Now the gap between Epic Dragon Carbon and Epic Dragon Aluminum was in fact the materials... Specially since that is the first time we did Carbon Fiber. Alot of R&D capital went into getting that going.... and R&D is something everyone always seems to forget about.
Click to expand...

Why isn't there an aluminum Weapon?
 
Yeah I must say, having had 24hrs to think about it, the price does seem steep. If there was a Magnesium version that shot 120 fps pro res then I'd be there. But paying an extra $15k or there abouts for pro res at up to 120fps is discouraging.

Question
What happens on the Magnesium if you're shooting say a 5K HD project. Using a variety of frame rates in the 24-60 fps range. Say the plan is to record 2k pro res 422 HQ files for offline and editorial. But you want to shoot some stuff at 75fps and then at 100 fps. Then the Red Mini Mag will have all the RAWs, the pro res shots that are below 60 fps but not he shots that are above 60 fps.

Honestly guys this just complicates things, just put the good electronics in the Magnesium as well and let those that want CF pay for it.

Not being able to record pro res over 60 fps on the magnesium body is just another way to complicate things for the Red workflow, we want simpler not another gotcha, or oh but weight I you just need to tell post that those particular shots need to be transcoded to pro res HQ, or was that LT or 4444 - see where I'm going with this. No actually just make it XQ at 1280x720 and so on...
 
Jarred, I love how you took the time to explain things. Thank you man.

I'm trapped in limited wifi territory. The 5k credit, I'm not clear if we have to use it this week, as I'm not sure what Weapon accessories I would prefer?
 
Jarred Land said:
Hey Christopher you need to look at it a bit differently. Yes Weapon is more expensive than an Epic. It does alot more. It handles 8K. It records multiple compressed formats at the same time. Not everyone can afford it. But it is a Dragon. The Dragon family has price points for everyone... and the Dragon family will continue to move forward. We have a spread of price points for everyone and that will continue.

I know $50k is alot of money and outside alot of people's reach. The Carbon Epic Dragon was the same price. And it is a great camera. The Weapon Dragon does not replace the Epic and Scarlet, it sits above it.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm pretty happy with my Dragon so I'm not worried about my situation at this time. I just think ahead for what's to come and hope that my Epic Dragon will be able to be "upgradable" or similar in the future as well, so that it doesn't end up in a two part upgrade, first weapon then "nextgen", which would cost so much that it's impossible to keep up. I think what I mean is: if there's a new sensor in the future, I hope it isn't going to be just for Weapon; that if we want to update to a new sensor we don't have to upgrade to Weapon first to get it.
In that way, we might still be able to keep up. Or if there's future improvements to the cost parts for the Weapon it's upgrade cost will drop while current Weapon owners can upgrade to an even more improved body...

Seems like I'm arriving at final questions all the time, but my final question (:001_rolleyes:) is: As a part of the Dragon family, will the Epic Dragon be on track with future upgrades or do we have to have Weapon in order to continue in the future?
 
Adam Howden said:
Yeah I must say, having had 24hrs to think about it, the price does seem steep. If there was a Magnesium version that shot 120 fps pro res then I'd be there. But paying an extra $15k or there abouts for pro res at up to 120fps is discouraging.

Question
What happens on the Magnesium if you're shooting say a 5K HD project. Using a variety of frame rates in the 24-60 fps range. Say the plan is to record 2k pro res 422 HQ files for offline and editorial. But you want to shoot some stuff at 75fps and then at 100 fps. Then the Red Mini Mag will have all the RAWs, the pro res shots that are below 60 fps but not he shots that are above 60 fps.

Honestly guys this just complicates things, just put the good electronics in the Magnesium as well and let those that want CF pay for it.

Not being able to record pro res over 60 fps on the magnesium body is just another way to complicate things for the Red workflow, we want simpler not another gotcha, or oh but weight I you just need to tell post that those particular shots need to be transcoded to pro res HQ, or was that LT or 4444 - see where I'm going with this. No actually just make it XQ at 1280x720 and so on...
Click to expand...
I'm thinking about asking for my deposit for the Mg to be refunded for this exact reason. If Pro res was available up to 120fps, then I would be happy to upgrade to Mg now and look at the Vista Vision at a later stage. This limitation is too much of a compromise for me, and I don't think that I will be able increase rental rates on the 6K CF Weapon to compensate for the increased cost.
 
Jarred Land said:
You still are comparing Epic Carbon and Epic Aluminum against Weapon Magnesium and Weapon Carbon. You are missing the Magnesium part of it.. Weapon is Magnesium, not Aluminum like Epic. You need to run Magnesium machines very slow so they dont start a fire ( irony in there given you) .. it takes alot of time to work with. It goes through some different coating processes. It's a pain in the ass. But it has alot of advantages over aluminum. There is alot of Magnesium in the Carbon Weapon because it is such a good material for the application.

Now the gap between Epic Dragon Carbon and Epic Dragon Aluminum was in fact the materials... Specially since that is the first time we did Carbon Fiber. Alot of R&D capital went into getting that going.... and R&D is something everyone always seems to forget about.
Click to expand...

That's why I specifically mentioned R&D in my first post an hour ago :-)

OK, that kinda hangs together. As someone else said, thanks for taking the time to explain. And I have some great videos of what happens when you try to put out an Mg fire with water... we carry special powder extinguishers for that stuff!

PS as long as I have your ear, you know what camera I want RED to make? The one I'd get in line for, even if you only made it in a gold-plated hand-polished carbon fibre Italian leather version? :-) Let's call it 'Weapon Sniper'... because the goal is to own the night. Full-frame, 4K. Big photosites. A Red version of the A7S; specialist low-light sensor, Graeme's magic RAW recording. That is my dream 'niche' camera.

I'd find you on the booth and tell you that myself if I had made NAB this year. but schedules... have fun!

Mike
 
Christoffer Glans said:
As a part of the Dragon family, will the Epic Dragon be on track with future upgrades or do we have to have Weapon in order to continue in the future?
Click to expand...

All three cameras (Scarlet, Epic and Weapon Dragons) will be eligible for the next step after Dragon - this was confirmed by Jarred earlier...

:sifone: Peter
 
Jarred Land said:
You still are comparing Epic Carbon and Epic Aluminum against Weapon Magnesium and Weapon Carbon. You are missing the Magnesium part of it.. Weapon is Magnesium, not Aluminum like Epic. You need to run Magnesium machines very slow so they dont start a fire ( irony in there given you) .. it takes alot of time to work with. It goes through some different coating processes. It's a pain in the ass. But it has alot of advantages over aluminum. There is alot of Magnesium in the Carbon Weapon because it is such a good material for the application.

Now the gap between Epic Dragon Carbon and Epic Dragon Aluminum was in fact the materials... Specially since that is the first time we did Carbon Fiber. Alot of R&D capital went into getting that going.... and R&D is something everyone always seems to forget about.
Click to expand...

I guess the argument seems to mainly be about: since MG and CF is so expensive why is there no aluminum option to get cost down a bit and make the Weapon tech available to "the masses"?

I assume this will happen at some point in the future. Just like we had first the Epic-M, then the Epic-X and then the Scarlet, we will probably see the Weapon form factor and tech trickle down towards Epic and Scarlet. Just not today.
 
weapon is the bleeding edge of technology.

I guess I'll have to wait and take the bled out version once they are out ;) but I'll gladly do then.

Too bad I have to miss out on shooting with the VV though.
 
Patrick Grossien said:
I guess the argument seems to mainly be about: since MG and CF is so expensive why is there no aluminum option to get cost down a bit and make the Weapon tech available to "the masses"?

I assume this will happen at some point in the future. Just like we had first the Epic-M, then the Epic-X and then the Scarlet, we will probably see the Weapon form factor and tech trickle down towards Epic and Scarlet. Just not today.
Click to expand...

Yeah, but we had a pretty good roadmap back then; we knew the deal more clearly.

It does beg the question: what of Scarlet? Epic/Scarlet MX are EOL now. Where's the ~$10K or ~$14k Weapon, that maxes out at maybe 6K 24fps, but gets the Scarlet market people on that budget into the ongoing Weapon ecosystem of accessories etc?

Where's the Scarlet MX replacement? Where's Weapon Scarlet?

R1 -> R1 MX -> Epic MX -> Epic Dragon -> Weapon

Scarlet MX -> Scarlet Dragon -> ????

(I have no horse in this race btw, I just sold my Scarlet!)

Mike
 
Ok,
As Mike was putting it so clearly , we all have a niche for our business , I'll go straight to the point regarding my situation:
I need 900 FPS at 4K. No less. I will pay for the 8K upgrade in a heartbeat if anyone from RED raises it's hand and says yes to that frame rate on a VV 8K Weapon.
Tired of throwing money at renting a 4K Flex every month or so.
I have mixed emotions right now : That upgrade is a bargain for my company if 900FPS/4K is possible with the VV, the same upgrade is a financial disaster if that frame rate is not achievable .
Thanks for listening.
Have a great NAB week.

Frederic
 
Could anybody clarify or at least have an opinion on lenses coverage on this sensor ? For example...How would Cooke S4i Mini's accommodate the new 8k sensor ?
 
Cristian Nicolescu said:
Could anybody clarify or at least have an opinion on lenses coverage on this sensor ? For example...How would Cooke S4i Mini's accommodate the new 8k sensor ?
Click to expand...

You won't be able to use the full sensor with a Cooke S4 (Designed for S35). You will only be able to use a crop of the sensor.

You need FF glass if you want to use the FULL sensor.
 
So this means no real Cine Lenses go with it in order to cover the full sensor ?…only maybe the special IMAX ones or very old real VistaVision? ( apart from the photo lenses) I am confused...
 
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