7d vs Red

[Sven Seynaeve]

I just can't get it. I have bought a gh-1 for my own use when i get on holiday.
I'm shooting on a daily basis with ex-1's and ex-3's, even after 2 years it becomes very obvious that I want something heavier again, because i can't shoot proper on the shoulder anymore, even how hard I try it doesn't feel comfortable ad stable. Therefore my choice leans towards the R1 again, the Epic which seems very well thought and eventually when I really need to because of the client or workflow , I would use the Alexa systems. Even the pana 371 could do the job better. But no matter how tempting the 5d and 7d's were, after a year I've seen that there's no way i could get satisfied on the road with the formfactor it is build with. It quiet ridiculous, looking at the accesories needed to build a real system from it. It can be very satisfying under some conditions, but let's be honest , it's not ment to shoot cinema.

 

[Robert Frank]

Done on the 550D, but I guess the principle would be the same: http://www.vimeo.com/12651531

Wow... that's a very good example of some of the very bad artifacts coming from these cameras.

It seems that the current V-DSLRs give better results when there's no fine detail, or motion in the image, or have much of the image defocused. That's way too limiting for my standards.

I love my 5D2 as a stills camera. It's fantastic for that purpose. But as a cinema camera?

 

[Álex Montoya]

Wow... that's a very good example of some of the very bad artifacts coming from these cameras.

Be careful, or they'll call you a pixel-peeper.

 

[Robert Frank]

Be careful, or they'll call you a pixel-peeper.

Thanks for the reminder!

No pixel-peeping is needed to see the fatal flaws in the clip that Martin posted the link to as an example.

If RED footage looked like this people would freak out everywhere. (Edit: I see that Graeme posted a similar comment in post #41.)

Similarly, if we'd taken the same short-cuts that Canon have done to make their stills cameras do video, we'd have been (deservedly) roasted alive.

 

[Brandon Kraemer]

I think people should stop pixel peeping and focus on why clients are requesting shoots on the 5D/7D rather than RED. In the last week alone I've been asked to shoot two commercials on the Canons where before those jobs would have been RED or film. It cant simply be economics. What is scaring them off?

Could be workflow... or the perceived complications of red workflow. Which when you compare it to the proper way of working with 7D is silly, since that workflow is very backwards in my opinion, slow and very frustrating if you are trying to do 7D with sync sound.

However, I have been told by more than one DP that he has lost rentals on his Red One because the post house the agency is using refuses to work with Red footage... true. I just tell them to send the work my way. I think there are some simple things that Red has done and can do further to simplify it or the access to information, etc. Not every "pro-sumer" type editor/post facility across the country is going to want to take on something unless it feels comfortable to them, right or wrong.

 

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

It's quite obvious that the Red One has a better resolution, better detail and better dynamic than the 7d. The point isn't really there. I understand the concern of all the Red owners who try to reassure themselves by showing picture comparisons but the choice of a camera for the client isn't just related to the technical aspects. Other aspects I always consider when I'm about to rent some gear :

- the price depending on the thing I'm shooting. Of course if it's a feature, Red is on the top of the list. But if it's a music video, something for the internet, an arty shortfilm, a 550d/7D/5D will be good enough for me. Nobody watches these kind of pictures on the big screen. Even for a feature it is hard to find a place to screen your work.
- the insurance : if the camera breaks on set, what's the solution not to loose a single day ?
- the person who comes with the gear. If it's a self-promoted Genius, well, I prefer to do everything myself...
- the post process depending on the time I have. It's on the last position, as nowadays with Redcine-X things have improved on the Red side.

I have had quite a lot of contacts with Red owners, some great, some bad, just like everyone. The relationship is really important and I would prefer to work with a nice chap who owns a 550d rather than with an asshole who's got a top-noth Red package. The reverse is also true :laugh:

 

[Mike Brent]

Wow... that's a very good example of some of the very bad artifacts coming from these cameras.

Yes very good example and no workaround such problems, so better fork 15 times the price for a different camera.

This discussion and comparing a $1200 camera to Red only legitimizes DSLRs as serious cameras. People like to support the underdog, in this case a still camera turned "serious". There is something cool about it. And it was "discovered" by "the people", and was not hyped and pumped. People like that.

 

[Robert Frank]

This discussion and comparing a $1200 camera to Red only legitimizes DSLRs as serious cameras.

No, it doesn't. That's the point.

I was pointing out image flaws, not price. Although the general trend is to point out the price, then rationalize the images flaws.

 

[Mike Brent]

Also, more academically, with so many reality TV shows which are going on for years already shot on cheap cameras on the run and with more and more "documentary style" releases (Paranormal Activities, the Wrestler) people's tastes changes. People get turned off by a super clean super sharp super well lit picture because it reminds them that they are watching a movie.

You are saying the picture is grainy but then when you will shoot with Epic you will say "hey, this looks too clean" and will add grain yourself.

 

[Philip Powell]

I think people should stop pixel peeping and focus on why clients are requesting shoots on the 5D/7D rather than RED. In the last week alone I've been asked to shoot two commercials on the Canons where before those jobs would have been RED or film. It cant simply be economics. What is scaring them off?

I understand, when I point out technical issues with DSLRs to producers they poo poo them. (not DP's mind you)

But I think the question is not, what is scaring them (from the Red).

But rather what is MOTIVATING them to want 5D/7D. (I don't think it's primarily cost)

My personal observation is pure emotional enthusiasm, DSLR fever if you will. Most of the producers don't even have a clue about the specs of the tools they're requesting. They see some select TV shows using the tools, they hear their friends rave about them. Hence, You're cool if you're working with these DSLR camera, I want to be cool, let's use them. (An overly simplification to be sure but in the neighborhood)

To be fair Red benefited from this similar mind set for time period when butting heads with Film and HD. I had producers call and request that something be shot on the Red, not because they understood the tool, or even if it was the best one for the job but gosh darn it..."we're shooting with the Red!!" And I happily booked the job.

Same thing is happening currently with DSLRS, within a certain segment of the market they have the edge from a branding standpoint.

How to correct that perception, I'm not quite sure at the moment.

 

[Robert Frank]

But rather what is MOTIVATING them to want 5D/7D. (I don't think it's primarily cost)

My personal observation is pure emotional enthusiasm, DSLR fever if you will. Most of the producers don't even have a clue about the specs of the tools they're requesting. They see some select TV shows using the tools, they hear their friends rave about them. Hence, You're cool if you're working with these DSLR camera, I want to be cool, let's use them. (An overly simplification to be sure but in the neighborhood)

Just a few years ago the Panasonic DVX100 hit the market and the BUZZ words everywhere were "24P" and "16x9". Suddenly people who had a desire to make a "movie" rather than shoot videos had an affordable tool that would let them realize their ideas.

It was a low quality picture compared to 35mm film but the enthusiasm was overwhelming due to what users perceived as the camera giving them cinema quality images for relatively low cost.

That enthusiasm is what helped DVXuser.net become popular. After the honeymoon was over and people wanted better image quality "HD" became the new BUZZ word.

That very same enthusiasm is what (IMO) helped RED come into existence. I recall Jim Jannard posting on DVXuser about a camera that would really go for it. It sounded like it would be a great digital "cinema" camera. Not a digital "video" camera posing a cinema camera.

Those posts on DVXuser are what brought me to REDuser, and to buy a RED One.

And the reason for buying a RED was that other cameras were just "good enough" but not "great".

To this day you can still buy cheaper cameras with good quality. If that's all you can afford, I totally recommend getting one and start shooting.

You can even spend a small fortune on cameras that are excellent but with lower specs than RED. With these I'm not sure if this is a smart or not.

RED One (especially now with MX) and Epic cameras are in a class of their own.

 

[Michael Hastings]

How to correct that perception, I'm not quite sure at the moment.

Let it run its course.

And have RED deliver the next generation of "cool" - which will happen (soon I hope) with the Epic.

 

[Álex Montoya]

Let it run its course.

And have RED deliver the next generation of "cool" - which will happen (soon I hope) with the Epic.

It's starting to change.

A friend of mine, who is producer bought a 7D for their little productions and ended up shooting a short film that was later transfered to film and they had massive problems with color correction stage and with moiré.

I can assure you that he isn't recommending it to anyone.

 

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

It's starting to change.

A friend of mine, who is producer bought a 7D for their little productions and ended up shooting a short film that was later transfered to film and they had massive problems with color correction stage and with moiré.

I can assure you that he isn't recommending it to anyone.

It's not necessary the 7d's fault regarding color correction, even of course if it's harder than grading r3d's. The moiré is something else :iagree: I don't really see the interest of going back to film, wether you shoot with Red or 7d. Most of the good film festivals have now decent video projectors.

 

[Martin Weiss]

Film festivals don't pay your mortage.

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

7D or 5D can do some of selected shots just in the case that R1 is difficult to bring there and the rest is for R1-MX.

Actually the cameras like a soon shipping Alexa should be afraid of HDDSLRs.

We already heard that Alexa asked for an additional reseller to reach some other markets just because the sales were not so good as expected.

In many third world poor countries they shoot massively with HDDSLR but will not with overpriced Alexa.

RED is already pretty good established there and as we know Argentinian movie won this year Academy Award for Foreign Film.

 

[Leo Ticheli]

I'm doing tests now; Red, VariCam, & 5D. Just the charts so far, and the results are mostly expected. Red outstanding it every respect, VariCam a little softer, but really quite beautiful pictures, and 5D surprisingly good, if you ignore the unacceptable banding and moiré and, of course, the horrible ergonomics.

Red is limited only by no 4K above 30fps and size/weight, no filter wheel.

VariCam is easy to use, makes really beautiful pictures, has the best range of frame rates, great sensitivity, and is limited only by resolution and wider DOF.

The 5D2 rules in size/weight & low light, but is clearly inferior in picture quality and ergonomics.

If I have proper crew & time, Red is the obvious choice. Smaller crew, moving fast, the VariCam rocks. If we're talking B-camera or crash camera, or you insist on it, I'll shoot with the 5D2. Just remember, if there's a solid background or a gradient the 5D2 is going to bite you on the ass.

That's where I stand today.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

 

[Álex Montoya]

It's not necessary the 7d's fault regarding color correction, even of course if it's harder than grading r3d's. The moiré is something else :iagree: I don't really see the interest of going back to film, wether you shoot with Red or 7d. Most of the good film festivals have now decent video projectors.

Most of them do, but there's still a good number of important ones that don't.

Anyway, these problems appear as well if you project from an HD file.

 

[Jay Gannon]

Film festivals don't pay your mortage.

Finally someone who agrees. They play a very important part of the industry but they don't pay the bills day on day.

 

[Jean-Charles Wolfarth]

Film festivals don't pay your mortage.

Yes, of course, as most of the artistic projects. I wrote about film festivals because there aren't a lot of other opportunities to show your work. If the plan is to pay your mortage, well, maybe working in a bank or at an insurance company is worth trying but certainly not the film business.:thumbsup: Most people I know who succeed making a living in this business are daddy's boys/girls counting on their parents' relationship. Being able to buy a good Red package often requires family funding too, at least in Europe. Back to topic...