720p@120fps or 2K@96fps? From 35mm or S16mm part of the sensor?

[Emanuel A.]

We don't have to change anything... it was just a thought. But we don't have the space to do everything. We can leave the spec as it is OR we can get creative at the last minute. I don't really care either way. I'll shoot 4K at 24fps to CF or either 720P @ 120fps or 2K at 96fps to CF. My personal preference is 2K @ 96fps, but I'm just one customer. If the majority wants 720P @ 120fps... that's what we'll do. We can't do both. In hindsight, we would have put in a bigger FPGA (not available when we started) but then the price of the camera would be $4K more expensive. Choices... choices.

Jim

LINK

Jim left here the motto. We're all here his followers. We owe him our recent and upcoming happiness and sunny future. However, this doesn't necessarily mean we should be with him in all his thoughts or suggestions. For example, I'd like to have 2K scaled and it seems we can't go in any way other than as windowed from the S16mm part of the sensor when we're going to 2K.

RGB, for instance, could be and would be a more interesting bet than 2K just because it came up from the full 35mm size sensor. Including 35mm --> 1080/60p @REDCODE realm IS better than any other option coming from the half of the 35mm sensor, IMHO. Or have I been drunk?... ;-)

But, I'd be glad if there will be a 2K scaled from the 35mm indeed. And I'm sorry my lack of democracy sense here but you all should ask it beyond my will or from anyone in these same boards.

It seems RGB is not an easy task nor welcome at 1st release, at least.

However, we have choices. This is what does mean to live in a democracy. Jim knows it more than anyone else here. His success, wherever he is. And actually, his choice is 50% the same than mine. LOL

The other 50%, well, it's also in your hands. Exercise your will and needs.


EDIT -- There's no multiple choice, of course. The Jim's post is clear as key word: choices.

 

[Darwin]

Emanuel,

Thank you, This poll was needed! However I think if you can get 2k/96 you could get both windowed and scaled, could you not?

 

[Emanuel A.]

Unfortunately not now, as it is possible to check here:

http://www.red.com/formatoptions.shtml

This was the great specs change on the format options before Christmas.

 

[Martin Drew]

So if I am reading it right the 2K scaled option would not be RAW it would be RGB.

M

 

[Mike Zinner]

I also don't think that "scaled" will work and I also don't think that there will be 100fps. So the poll is a bit misleading right now. So it would be better to reset it to 720p@120fps vs. 2K@96fps as long as not that many people have voted.

 

[Jochen Schmidt-Hambrock]

And the main difference between scaled and windowed is DOF, right?

Jochen

 

[Anders Holck]

The main difference is that the Mysterium chip can only do 60 fps in full 35mm crop.
2K@96fps scaled is impossible, because you are scaling from 4k which is 60fps max.

As the imager chip can do up to 120 fps at 2k cropped, it's (according to Jim) now possible to do 2K@96fps cropped with the limit being the compression power on the FPGA.

As many as have voted to the last option in this poll, it's not possible, unless they reengineer the imager.

 

[Emanuel A.]

I also don't think that "scaled" will work and I also don't think that there will be 100fps. So the poll is a bit misleading right now. So it would be better to reset it to 720p@120fps vs. 2K@96fps as long as not that many people have voted.

I understand and subscribe your feelings Mike but this poll is not science!


The idea is to put some things on the table in order to the discussion (isn't it one of the aims of any thread in any forum?)


A) The beef is between 720p/120fps vs. 2K/96fps;


but there are other issues:


B) I could never figure out why we could have 1080/60fps RGB with the REDCODE from the 35mm sensor size but not 2K scaled;


BB) Why is 2K scaled gone?


C) The europeans have always seen the american standards ruling their own lives instead more convergence. At least, before the media convergence age. Why? Because we are always the first to shut up when they're deciding with which standards we'll deal with. It's not properly the case of RED. But Jim had all night long spreading their 96fps standard and beyond myself, I didn't check anyone to raise the level of his/her/their/our voice saying: "hey, we are here". OK, there's an excuse: the europeans were sleeping in the meantime. While America is fighting for their own standards. But later, there won't be more place to debates genre why PAL is better and NTSC is there.

 

[Anders Holck]

I believe scaled 2k Redcode RGB went away because of the performance of 4k Redcode RAW.

 

[Anders Holck]

A flickerfree 100fps speed would indeed be great for us europeans

 

[Mr. Paul White]

The main difference is that the Mysterium chip can only do 60 fps in full 35mm crop.
2K@96fps scaled is impossible, because you are scaling from 4k which is 60fps max.

So be it. But Emanuel is right. Why 2k scaled is not there. 60 fps extracted from the 35 mm would rock. Why 1080p RGB and not REDcode RAW at 2k?

 

[Anders Holck]

They don't offer RAW scaling. 2k@60p scaled would have to be RGB.

2k scaled Redcode RGB at 60fps would theoretically be possible, but they have chosen to concentrate on 1080 and 720 as the only RGB resolutions.

2k and 4k is clearly aimed at Cinema where RAW is more important than high framerates. For broadcast all you need is 1080 anyways.

There is no doubt onboard 4k@60 RAW would be amazing, but the power is not there unfortunately.

 

[Mr. Paul White]

I believe scaled 2k Redcode RGB went away because of the performance of 4k Redcode RAW.

Makes sense at 24/25 fps. Not when 60 fps is confined to the 1080p. Over crank at 2k (DCI) extracted from 35 mm is not the same than over crank at 1080 RGB. 60 fps, 96 fps (who cares?). Extracted from S16 is worst. No matter if it is 2k. It's not 35 mm.

 

[Martin Drew]

C) The europeans have always seen the american standards ruling their own lives instead more convergence. At least, before the media convergence age. Why? Because we are always the first to shut up when they're deciding with which standards we'll deal with. It's not properly the case of RED. But Jim had all night long spreading their 96fps standard and beyond myself, I didn't check anyone to raise the level of his/her/their/our voice saying: "hey, we are here". OK, there's an excuse: the europeans were sleeping in the meantime. While America is fighting for their own standards. But later, there won't be more place to debates genre why PAL is better and NTSC is there.

The format is either going to be Redcode RAW or Recode RGB, it is not PAL or NTSC coded. The only difference is on playback so you won't get more than 96fps it is just that if you playback at 25fps you are looking at approximately quarter speed slomo as compared to approximately third speed for 30fps.

If you are playing back at 24fps this is a totally moot point, you will get spot on quarter speed.

M

 

[Curran Giddens]

I would have to change my vote from the scaled 2k@96fps to windowed 2k@96fps if the RAW can't be scaled. I always want to shoot RAW....

 

[albert rudnicki]

99% of time you'll be shooting at 24-fps (30), you can do it in 4K raw.
However in those few occasions when you need a slow-mo, the 2K scaled would be crucial.
Cropping can become a nightmare in a long project. Imagine some of the action scenes (300), inter-cutting from scaled to full frame-ugrhhhh.
Albert
www.yayofilms.com

 

[albert rudnicki]

I would have to change my vote from the scaled 2k@96fps to windowed 2k@96fps if the RAW can't be scaled. I always want to shoot RAW....

99% of time you'll be shooting at 24-fps (30), you can do it in 4K raw.
However in those few occasions when you need a slow-mo, the 2K scaled would be crucial.
Cropping can become a nightmare in a long project. Imagine some of the action scenes (300), inter-cutting from croped to full frame-ugrhhhh.

Albert
www.yayofilms.com

 

[Nils Ruinet]

I voted for "2K@96fps windowed (or 100fps for us PAL guys!) from the S16mm part of the sensor", as from my understanding the third option isn't possible, at least not in RAW. I think you can't scale RAW...

And yes, please try to reach 100fps for us european people...

 

[Eirik Tyrihjel]

What matters most to me is What can be recorded to either CF or RED DRIVE, will we be able to get 96 fps a 2k to either of the previously mentioned, or is all this for RED RAW PORT and a "disk-fridge" that costs 100KUS$?

If 96 fps a 2k vs 120 fps a 720p are both recordable to a medium that is affordable, I would say 96fps at a full 2K resolution sounds awfully tempting.

However if it is 120fps at 720p to CF/REDDRIVE v/s 96fps to some unobtainable recording medium, I´d stay with 720p anyday.

Both would be best of course...

 

[Anders Holck]

Yes we are talking onboard Redcode RAW recording.