720p@120fps or 2K@96fps? From 35mm or S16mm part of the sensor?

[Floris Liesker]

Why are people saying it so important for us europeans to have 100fps? As if anybody would notice the difference between 96 fps and 100 fps.
The only thing I could think of is if you want a band to lipsync in a music video. 100 fps would call for an audio playback at exactly 25% speed, which is probably easier to remember than 26,0416666%, the speed you would need when recording at 96 fps. Other than that I cannot come up with a good reason for 100 fps.

 

[Paul Hazlett]

Well I think if you record on a HD deck via the HD-SDI you will get a scaled 1080p.

antoine.

If this is a viable option and proven to work, or better yet HD-sdi with embeded audio, everybody wins! SDI port for those that need to give a tape at the end of the day to a producer or for broadcast and more slow mo for those that need it.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Why is it so important for us europeans to have 100fps? Would anybody notice the difference between something that has been recorded at 96 fps or at 100 fps?
The only thing I could think of is if you want a band to lipsync in a music video. 100 fps would call for an audio playback at exactly 25% speed, which is probably easier to remember than 26,0416666%, the speed you would need when recording at 96 fps. Other than that I cannot come up with a good reason for 100 fps.

I think you may have more flicker issues with some lights at 96 fps than at 100fps...

 

[Emanuel A.]

The format is either going to be Redcode RAW or Recode RGB, it is not PAL or NTSC coded. The only difference is on playback so you won't get more than 96fps it is just that if you playback at 25fps you are looking at approximately quarter speed slomo as compared to approximately third speed for 30fps.

If you are playing back at 24fps this is a totally moot point, you will get spot on quarter speed.

M

Why are people saying it so important for us europeans to have 100fps? As if anybody would notice the difference between 96 fps and 100 fps.
The only thing I could think of is if you want a band to lipsync in a music video. 100 fps would call for an audio playback at exactly 25% speed, which is probably easier to remember than 26,0416666%, the speed you would need when recording at 96 fps. Other than that I cannot come up with a good reason for 100 fps.

Martin and Floris, PAL vs. NTSC is not more an issue but 50Hz vs. 60Hz is not gone. 24fps is an "Edison legacy" even if the "poor" inventor probably didn't notice the difference beyond the 18fps. But with the talkies, we lost the flickering proof. Our lighting setups would appreciate.

 

[Kevin Halverson]

I think you may have more flicker issues with some lights at 96 fps than at 100fps...

This is really only a concern with magnetic ballast sources in a 50Hz environment. Flicker free (high frequency) is the only way to go when you are shooting off speed due to the much greater sensitivity with shorter exposure periods.

 

[Antoine Baumann]

It would make more sense to abandon 1080 RGB than 2K RGB. At least, to my knowledge.

I think the logic behind this is if you go RAW, you shoot cine style, and if you go RGB, then you more in the boradcast style so 1080p is more what you need. A 2K RGB would always have to be scaled/croped to 1080p.

So, 2K windowed would just be a third choice for who have this particular need. By this order.

Yes I think the same, more option is better, but Jim has stated that they cannot provide all the option and choise must be made. It begins with choose between 720p@120fps or 2K@96fps but not both. I don't have read all the post, but even if I did, not sure I would have understand why you cannot have both.

antoine.

 

[Mick van Rossum NSC]

This is really only a concern with magnetic ballast sources in a 50Hz environment. Flicker free (high frequency) is the only way to go when you are shooting off speed due to the much greater sensitivity with shorter exposure periods.

Well. there is a very important thing; fluorescent lighting in "natural" environments, streetlights, trainstations, etcetera; they can be 50hz and will give flicker. However if my memory serves me right there is a solution in altering the shutter angle so one still has 1/50th of a second exposure time . (I don't have my ASC manual at hand) probably to an angle of 188 degrees or so....

cheers

Mick van Rossum NSC

 

[Anders Holck]

However if my memory serves me right there is a solution in altering the shutter angle so one still has 1/50th of a second exposure time

Yes setting the shutter to be a multiple of the AC frequency will most likely defeat the flicker.

But you obviously cant get a 1/50 sec shutter when shooting 96 fps as the base 180° shutter would be 1/192 sec. A 1/200 sec shutter might do the trick though. That would be 172.8°

 

[Mick van Rossum NSC]

Yes setting the shutter to be a multiple of the AC frequency will most likely defeat the flicker.

But you obviously cant get a 1/50 sec shutter when shooting 96 fps as the base 180° shutter would be 1/192 sec. A 1/200 sec shutter might do the trick though, I think that is 172.8°

ofcourse, my bad....

cheers

Mick van Rossum NSC

 

[Kevin Halverson]

Well. there is a very important thing; fluorescent lighting in "natural" environments, streetlights, trainstations, etcetera; they can be 50hz and will give flicker. However if my memory serves me right there is a solution in altering the shutter angle so one still has 1/50th of a second exposure time . (I don't have my ASC manual at hand) probably to an angle of 188 degrees or so....

cheers

Mick van Rossum NSC

Its 172.8 degrees, but this still doesn't take into account the problems that can arise when shooting off speed. The sensitivity to flicker increases and at 400% over crank counting on flicker free performance (even if you nail the shutter angle / frame rate) with "natural" lighting is asking for problems.

 

[Floris Liesker]

I think flicker issues in 50 hz countries can only be avoided by using fps that are exact divisions of 50, like 50 fps, 25 fps, 16.6666666 fps, 12.5 fps and so on.
Any recording above 50fps could show flicker, regardless if it's an exact multiplication of 50 or not.
It seems some people assume there is a mathematical connection between recording speed and playback speed and therefore ask for 100 fps.

 

[Anders Holck]

187.5° at 96 fps is 1/184.32 sec. not a clean multiple of 50.

And you are correct it's a hit and miss. Fortunately there is instant playback on the RED, so you dont have to wait for the dailies to see that you fucked up

 

[Kevin Halverson]

Yeah, my mistake. Its 172.8 degrees not 187.5.

 

[Thom Steinhoff]

in voting between the two real options (720p cropped@120fps vs 2k cropped at 96fps) my vote is definately for the 2K/96.

2K Redcode Raw scaled is just not possible so the winning vote doesn't make any sense. Hopefully someone will close this thread and start one that actually makes sense.

 

[Emanuel A.]

Thom, sometimes in life, there are a lot of things which don't make sense. And actually do (or vice versa). Michelangelo's death, for example.

Behind the poll, there's a claim. If you do not understand it, please let who does it.

IMHO, 35mm acquisition does all the sense. 2K REDCODE RAW scaled is not mandatory. It can be 2K REDCODE RGB scaled or don't you agree?

To my knowledge, 2K windowed doesn't make sense at all when (beyond the higher frame rate exception):
a) (especially) the typical RED shooter is investing $34,000 in RED glass or am I wrong?
b) (after all) it would be possible to have better 2K scaled.

RGB? As far as possible. Why not?

The poll can serve to claim:
1) 720p/120fps -- it doesn't seem so!
2) your beloved 2K windowed @96fps -- Jim's motto
3) my beloved 2K REDCODE RGB scaled no matters at whatever frame rate! -- and it seems there's who has been thinking the same...

Is it clear enough?

EDIT -- Sorry my rant but I've been terribly sad with such news on this (these) most recent world's loss(es) instead any pathetic technology issue.

 

[Häakon]

2K Redcode Raw scaled is just not possible so the winning vote doesn't make any sense. Hopefully someone will close this thread and start one that actually makes sense.

Well the poll doesn't say anything about "2K scaled RAW;" we all know that RAW cannot be scaled so the only way the poll makes sense is that you assume that 2K scaled means an RGB image. And perhaps a scaled image at which we can get faster framerates could certainly be beneficial to some. However, I propose that if you're going to be scaling the 4K image in camera you should do it to 1080 - not 2K. What are you going to do with a scaled 2K image? It's not taking advantage of a smaller window so you still need the 35mm glass, and most likely your HD delivery output will be 1080, not "2K" - which means having to go through an additional post process step and shrinking the 2K footage ever so slightly to become a 1080 frame. This just doesn't make much sense to me.

I think a better poll would be do you care about having a windowed sensor out of your full 35mm frame, and if not, would you find a 1080p scaled option valuable? It's clear by the poll views that what people really want is their 35mm DOF and the highest framerates possible. Unfortunately, at this time, the sensor can't take 96 4K images every second and scale them down to a 2K-sized image so the question is essentially moot.

 

[Antoine Baumann]

Well the poll doesn't say anything about "2K scaled RAW;" we all know that RAW cannot be scaled so the only way the poll makes sense is that you assume that 2K scaled means an RGB image

yes but we know the sensor max is 60p when using all of it...so 96fps can only be window.


antoine.

 

[Joe Carney]

If we drop 720/1080p does that mean the sdi outputs go too? Or will they still be available for on set video preview/assist.

 

[Emanuel A.]

yes but we know the sensor max is 60p when using all of it...so 96fps can only be window.


antoine.

Antoine,

I believe the two options (scaled and windowed) should be available there. There won't be more claims on more choices.

Emanuel

 

[Anders Holck]

If we drop 720/1080p does that mean the sdi outputs go too? Or will they still be available for on set video preview/assist.

Of course not I dont think anyone would give them away