720p@120fps or 2K@96fps? From 35mm or S16mm part of the sensor?

[Joe Carney]

I would like to change my vote to 2k windowed. Nothing wrong with using S16 lenses. Sometimes you want deeper depth of field.

Joe C.

 

[Paolo Tinari]

Off topic:
Anders, what the hell of a steady reel. wow.

 

[Jason Murphy]

I move that this poll is closed down and reworked with only the options that are feasible, namely

720p@120fps from the S16mm part of the sensor

and

2K@96fps windowed from the S16mm part of the sensor

Otherwise, the poll seems kind of useless, unless we're establishing that most of us want the impossible. (or at least the currently impossible)

Any seconds?

 

[Nils Ruinet]

What matters most to me is What can be recorded to either CF or RED DRIVE, will we be able to get 96 fps a 2k to either of the previously mentioned, or is all this for RED RAW PORT and a "disk-fridge" that costs 100KUS$?

Eirik,
2K@96fps would be recorded on CF / Reddrive, no RAW-port needed for this :

......I'll shoot 4K at 24fps to CF or either 720P @ 120fps or 2K at 96fps to CF. My personal preference is 2K @ 96fps, but I'm just one customer. ......
Jim

 

[Anders Holck]

Off topic:
Anders, what the hell of a steady reel. wow.

Thanks!

 

[Zach Hilton]

I voted for 2K @ 96fps scaled because I would like to have the choice of having shallower depth of field if I want. If it's not possible with scaling the image, I still vote for 2K @ 96fps, no matter how it is achieved.

 

[Rocket]

I would like to change my vote to 2k windowed. Nothing wrong with using S16 lenses. Sometimes you want deeper depth of field.

I'm confused, wouldn't windowed 2K with S16mm lenses result in a shallower depth of field than full frame with 35mm lenses? (aperture and all other things equal).

And then Strongbad_2Z's statement also doesn't make sense to me. A scaled 2K image would have the same "deeper" depth of field of the full 35mm frame exposed through 35mm lenses not a shallower depth of field.

Can someone clarify?

 

[Anders Holck]

If you keep the FOV the same, by adjusting the lens length between the two image sizes, then:
35mm=narrower DOF / Bokeh more out of focus
16mm=wider DOF / Bokeh more in focus

 

[Obin Olson]

I want scaled on every mode, who wants to shoot 16mm sized images with a s35mm sized camera? seems backwards, scale it all down from the 35mm sized sensor Jim!!

 

[Emanuel A.]

Obin, same feeling here. I never understood why so much wow thing with 2K. It's slight(ly) 1080p with steroids [ = 6.(6)% ]

The 35mm sensor is THE achievement.

I would like to change my vote to 2k windowed. Nothing wrong with using S16 lenses. Sometimes you want deeper depth of field.

Joe C.

What the hell, Joe?

You can go with deep DOF with 35mm. And with the RED glass... But we'll begin normal as focal length if we'll shoot 2K using them.

 

[Dominic Jones]

OK, I think it needs to be stated again that (unless something very serious has changed in the recent past) 2K scaled RAW is not possible... So we need to drop it from our thinking.

Obviously if we could get a 96fps image with 35mm characteristics in RAW at any sensible resolution that would be great, but from my understanding that's not on the table - the choice is between 720p RGB @120fps and 2K RAW @ 96fps (both windowed).

As long as we're talking Redcode RAW recording onboard (i.e. no RAIDs!) then I for one am all for 96fps @ 2K...

EDIT: Assuming I'm correct and scaled raw remains off the menu, I guess the issue is do we assume that all who voted for 96fps 2K scaled would move their votes to 96fps 2K windowed?? That would give 96fps 2K windowed a massive 86% of the votes as it currently stands!

 

[Kevin Halverson]

I would like to change my vote to 2k windowed. Nothing wrong with using S16 lenses. Sometimes you want deeper depth of field.

Joe C.

Indeed, nothing at all wrong with a Superspeed T1.3!

The windowed mode is a really important feature to me. A single camera that can emulate both S35 and S16 would cover all my current and anticipated needs. The occasions where greater than 400% overcrank isn't adequate will be extremely rare for my needs.

 

[Rocket]

If you keep the FOV the same, by adjusting the lens length between the two image sizes, then:
35mm=narrower DOF / Bokeh more out of focus
16mm=wider DOF / Bokeh more in focus

Ah, I had my definitions the wrong way around. :wacko: Thanks! :biggrin:

 

[Emanuel A.]

Obin, same feeling here. I never understood why so much wow thing with 2K. It's slight(ly) 1080p with steroids [ = 6.(6)% ]

I meant 2K windowed. 2K scaled is another ballpark. ;-)

35mm: this size doesn't necessarily mean shallow DOF or even a DOF paradigma; there's more beyond the use of 35mm and its higher resolution = (the) better picture quality is just another layer.

 

[Antoine Baumann]

BB) Why is 2K scaled gone?

as Anders already answeared, 2K scaled was considedred to be too close to 1080p scaled and so was abandonned.

I confirm that if you scale the image you don't get the RAW.
So for cinema style shooting, you will always go for 4K or 2K RAW
You cannot get a scaled RAW, and I think RAW is also an achievement, like the 35mm sized sensor.
Then again the sensor cannot record more than 60fps if you record from the whole sensor. So for high frame rate you must window the sensor.
Then the choise is between a 2K @ 96fps, or 720p @ 120fps both from the windowed sensor. For me the choise would be 2K @ 96fps, because you will generaly retouch it in post anyway, so you can extrapolate the inbetween frames.

Now for broadcast 1080p and 720p RGB make sens, but you can always extract them from the 4K-2K RAW. The only disadventage would be the processing time, on which we don't have precise idea, isn't it?
If processing time is fast, then why bother for RGB?

You could always record by the HD-SDI port to a HDCAM-SR deck, but what exactly would you get ? 1080p scaled, windowed?


How do you think 4K scaled to 2K in REDCINE, will intercut with 2K windowed?
Because for me 2K as always be the post production resolution I am thinking for finishing before printing back to film.


antoine.

 

[Rocket]

my head hurts :wacko:

 

[Emanuel A.]

The windowed mode is a really important feature to me. A single camera that can emulate both S35 and S16 would cover all my current and anticipated needs. The occasions where greater than 400% overcrank isn't adequate will be extremely rare for my needs.

Well, there you have a point. But sometimes, it seems strange to forget who born first. The egg or the chicken?

 

[Antoine Baumann]

Well I think if you record on a HD deck via the HD-SDI you will get a scaled 1080p.

antoine.

 

[Anders Holck]

You should be able to get both scaled and cropped out the HD-SDI, depending on format setting, both will be 1080p/i.

 

[Emanuel A.]

as Anders already answeared, 2K scaled was considedred to be too close to 1080p scaled and so was abandonned.

It would make more sense to abandon 1080 RGB than 2K RGB. At least, to my knowledge.

I confirm that if you scale the image you don't get the RAW.
So for cinema style shooting, you will always go for 4K or 2K RAW
You cannot get a scaled RAW, and I think RAW is also an achievement, like the 35mm sized sensor.
Then again the sensor cannot record more than 60fps if you record from the whole sensor. So for high frame rate you must window the sensor.
Then the choise is between a 2K @ 96fps, or 720p @ 120fps both from the windowed sensor. For me the choise would be 2K @ 96fps, because you will generaly retouch it in post anyway, so you can extrapolate the inbetween frames.

Now for broadcast 1080p and 720p RGB make sens, but you can always extract them from the 4K-2K RAW. The only disadventage would be the processing time, on which we don't have precise idea, isn't it?
If processing time is fast, then why bother for RGB?

You could always record by the HD-SDI port to a HDCAM-SR deck, but what exactly would you get ? 1080p scaled, windowed?


How do you think 4K scaled to 2K in REDCINE, will intercut with 2K windowed?
Because for me 2K as always be the post production resolution I am thinking for finishing before printing back to film.


antoine.

Good points here, And that's why I defend 35mm --> 4K RAW/2K scaled RGB for slowmotion purposes (as someone already said: I don't care if it will be @96fps or @60fps though I believe both might be possible @windowed and @scaled modes, respectively). So, 2K windowed would just be a third choice for who have this particular need. By this order.