6k camera coming soon!

[REDHKSC]

As for me and my house, I will stick with Red, and maybe Sony.

To me : Dalsa is No. 1 in 4K and ARRI is N0.2 in nearly 3K and both D-Cinema cameras can output uncompressed Raw data.

REDCODE is compressed ( It did not work in 4K 16:9 36MB/s !!! ) but can be used or mix with highest quality uncompressed raw files though.

Stewart
HKG

 

[Stuart English]

Redcode 36

Redcode 36

REDCODE is compressed ( It did not work in 4K 16:9 36MB/s !!!)

Stewart, with respect: what are you taking about?

 

[Dan Hudgins]

Uncompressed frames from any source, how much for DI...

Uncompressed frames from any source, how much for DI...

To me : Dalsa is No. 1 in 4K and ARRI is N0.2 in nearly 3K and both D-Cinema cameras can output uncompressed Raw data.

REDCODE is compressed ( It did not work in 4K 16:9 36MB/s !!! ) but can be used or mix with highest quality uncompressed raw files though.

When you make a film scan with a Monochrome camera and give the camera four exposures, IR, R, G, and B you more or less get pixels in the TIFF file that have unique data with high isolation from the adjacent pixels.

The output from Digital Cinema cameras is another matter.

In the RED ONE (tm) both the compression and heavy OLPF make getting a single pixel in RED with BLUE around it more or less impossible at 4K. In the other cameras their OLPF or other filtering probably also limit the isolated pixel resolution to 1K (250 to 500lp/frame height) as well.

With the film scan, the monochrome camera may not need an OLPF since the film image has soft edges. So to this point I do not think there is any 4K source for frames, even computer graphics are fuzzed up for Anti-aliasing. It is possable to make computer graphics without Anti-aliasing at true RGB 4K, and those are what is needed to test projection resolution, that is can you walk up to the screen and see a clear RED pixel with a ring of BLUE pixles with a ring of GREEN pixels on a black and white single pixel checker board, or is it just a faint blur?

About a year ago, people here were discouraging me from writing a 4K uncompressed post system, but I have made quite a bit of progress.

Note, Some tasks or programs used require Windows ME (tm) or Windows XP Home SP3 (tm) with the FreeDOS FAT32 (tm) disk mounted as a slave drive.

1) Running it under XP home addition with NTFS seems to work, to have TB of storage can be accessed. Computers using UBUNTU may be useful for file storage and backup, and other frame processing (with additions later). FreeDOS FAT32 may be another option for "render farm" computers to process frames.

2) Ongoing changes to the code are making the processing time and number of computers more manageable.

3) Doing the film out at 4K from dithered uncompressed files may offer a 4x improvement over 2K filmout in tone values and overcome some limits of the film recorder D2A converter, this needs some more work with the file conversion, but if you use compressed files in the later workflow the dithering cannot be used to help since single pixel values are not retained.

To get true 4K RGB pixels in the uncompressed frame files requires a Bayer filter camera of 8K to 12K. To get 4K on the screen without aliasing requires a film recorder of 8K to 12K raster reading clean RGB files that are uncompressed and have 8K to 12K pixels.

When you can get post going uncompressed at true RGB 12K then the end results should be better than anything obtainable with film-to-film printing for 65mm or maybe IMAX.

If IMAX goes to 4K digital projection rather than film, then there will not be a format that can show true 4K single pixel resolution on a screen and the future will be cut off at about 2K actual resolution on the screen. Printing directly to the newer color print stocks can get resolution above stuff shot on color negative, so having Digital Cinema cameras in the range of 8K to 12K can be useful for output on film if you print direct to color print stock in equipment that can meet that standard with color seperation exposures.

Anyway, Doing 8K uncompressed takes about 16 times as long as doing 2K but with maybe 20 to 40+ computers going 24/7 it should be workable now, or soonish for a feature film on a budget. The cost of the harddrives is not as bad as doing optical printing and film cost for all IMAX feature, probably.

==

2k=2048x1152x6=15MB*24=360MB/s*60=22GB/m*88=2TB*10+=20TB+

88x60x24=126720 frames * 2 minutes = 176 days for 1 computer.

or maybe 20 days for 10 computers... or 60 days on three computers.

Storage cost for 20TB if 500GB=$100 then 20TB/500GB*$100=$4000.
Cost for computers if 10*$400=$4,000.
Total = $8000 or so?

==

4K=4096x2304x6=60MB*24=1440MB/s*60=88GB/m*88=8TB*10+=80TB+

88x60x24=126720 frames * 8 minutes = 704 days for 1 computer.

or maybe 40 days for 20 computers...

Storage cost for 88TB if 500GB=$100 then 88TB/500GB*$100=$17,600.
Cost for computers if 20*$400=$8,000.
Total = $25,600 or so?

==

8K=8192x4608x6=227MB*24=5.5GB/s*60=330GB/m*88=30TB*10+=300TB+

88x60x24=126720 frames * 32 minutes = 2816 days for 1 computer.

or maybe 80 days for 40 computers...

Storage cost for 300TB if 500GB=$100 then 300TB/500GB*$100=$60,000.
Cost for computers if 40*$400=$16,000.
Total = $76,000 or so?

==

CC at size of the 2K frames may take 7 seconds or less, but I put 2 minutes since Windows is slow in making back up copies of frame files, so I figure de-Bayer, file conversion, CC, making proxy frames and backup will take at least 2 minutes per good frame shot. You need to weed out the bad takes soon in the workflow to cut the files down ASAP. 60 days on three computers seems resonable since the frame processing, CC, and editing can go on while shooting. It would probably take longer since you might not keep the computers going 24/7 all the time. The cost for the computers and storage is probably less than you would pay in lab fees for making a feature film. I did not include the cost of the filmout, but done DIY that can be held down.

The cost and time for 4K and 8K uncompressed DI seem not totaly out of reach, even if the time gets to 4x.

Threre are many options, and uncompressed on one of them if you want it. If you see any mistakes in my math please point them out...

 

[Thomas Mathai]

>>>Anyway, Doing 8K uncompressed takes about 16 times as long as doing 2K but with maybe 20 to 40+ computers going 24/7 it should be workable now, or soonish for a feature film on a budget. The cost of the harddrives is not as bad as doing optical printing and film cost for all IMAX feature, probably.<<<

This is where computer I/O will get interesting. Getting data consistently to those 20 to 40 computers for 24/7 without hiccups will involve some serious bandwidth, as well as data management.

There are rentable 3d render farms, where you upload your scenes, and buy render time as needed. I'm sure someone will setup the same for Red and other data cinema cameras.

 

[Harva Raj]

does anyone know how much is a new Aaton Penelope?

 

[Mitch Gross]

Price is still not set.

 

[Robert Horwell]

I know the price of the Penelope and it isn't cheap ( look at £120K ). The 2 or 3 perf option is pure genius of design. Optical viewfinder? nothing beats it, don't even think of comparing it to an evf, you can't beat looking down the bottle.

And now aaton are going to release the 'Aaton K' http://www.aaton.com/products/post/aatonk/ check it out. These guys know their market.

The digital back will be out next year, the penelope has been in development for some years now, so the idea of the digital back for them is no great revelation. Joe Dunton deigned one years ago for the SRIII and no one wanted to know, i remember all the talk of it and at the time most people thought it was a ludicrous idea...lol... I have a couple of Aatons, they are superb machines, all there cameras offer direct upgrades LTR-XTR-Xtera. the penelope will be a piece of design history.

Am i excited about it ? you have no idea how excited i am, there will be one in the UK very soon and i will be down there as soon as it's here to see for myself.

The RED is a great camera but will i ever stop shooting film? no way, i love it, i think that anyone who starts straight on digital and never shoots film is missing out. If you haven't...give it a try...it's where i learned about exposure and composition.

If i could afford a penelope i would sell everything i own to have one.

 

[Brent J. Craig]

If it's from Aaton, you'll probably have to stand on your head to "thread" the digimag and one out of 5 "rolls" will have huge unexplained digital scratches.

 

[Robert Horwell]

well that all depends whole loads the mag...right?

 

[Dan Hudgins]

6K ready?

6K ready?

even if people can shoot 6k, how people are going to edit it in FCP? the highest
resolution any NLE and DI suit is 4k.

My system should work at 6K, I NOW have 48bpp TIF I/O working in release [maybe up to 10K, but 6K+]) its going in house now, and looks very good!.

Update: I have uploaded the revised version for TIF I/O, if you want the full workflow you can read my docs, other posts, and email me for more details...

Note, Some tasks or programs used require Windows ME (tm) or Windows XP Home SP3 (tm) with the FreeDOS FAT32 (tm) disk mounted as a slave drive.

 

[Dan Hudgins]

hiccups...

hiccups...

>>>Anyway, Doing 8K uncompressed takes about 16 times as long as doing 2K but with maybe 20 to 40+ computers going 24/7 it should be workable now, or soonish for a feature film on a budget. The cost of the harddrives is not as bad as doing optical printing and film cost for all IMAX feature, probably.<<<

This is where computer I/O will get interesting. Getting data consistently to those 20 to 40 computers for 24/7 without hiccups will involve some serious bandwidth, as well as data management.

There are rentable 3d render farms, where you upload your scenes, and buy render time as needed. I'm sure someone will setup the same for Red and other data cinema cameras.

I do not think "hiccups" will be any serous issue, I am using FreeDOS FAT32 (tm) on 500GB EIDE 16MB buffer disks running on a 3.4GHz INTEL cpu without problems so far, it might run a year or more, but you can reboot between batches of frames.

I think it is easer to use removable HD rather than a network to move files around, with FreeDOS FAT32 (tm) there are no drivers to care about you can move the OS and files from one computer to another, as master or slave drives without any issues, and the graphics modes work, and there is no large OS overhead like under XP or Vista (tm)... Some tasks or programs used require Windows ME (tm) or Windows XP Home SP3 (tm) with the FreeDOS FAT32 (tm) disk mounted as a slave drive.

You can see a ARRI scan "6K" frame in my CC on this page,

http://www.reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=18391&page=4

Its a frame scan from the movie "Yojimbo".

Anyway, my system for DI is ready to use at "6K" now it seems, and maybe 8K to 10K, but I do not have large frame sets for that yet, and well what do you output 10K on? Have to look into uses of above 6K...

>>Note, Some tasks or programs used require Windows ME (tm) or Windows XP Home SP3 (tm) with the FreeDOS FAT32 (tm) disk mounted as a slave drive. Things may work better if all disks are formatted FAT32, which should work up to 2TB per disk.<<

 

[cadoux]

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