5k Scarlet and Epic are 1.2 Crop Cameras

[joshua csehak]

As far as I know EF-S lenses (APS-C) will not even fit on EF-mount cameras. However, EF lenses will fit on EF-S.

This is true. The EF lenses have a red dot to align to the body, the EF-S ones, a white square. That's a quick and easy way to tell if a Canon brand lens will fit.

So hopefully Red will make a Canon mount that will accommodate both EF-S and EF. As for whether EF-S lenses would cover Red Epic X, it might come down to individual lenses. Longer lenses tend to be covered, while shorter-focal-length lenses might not.

I'd guess you're probably right about it coming down to the lens. For instance, IIRC, the Tokina 11-16 will fit both mounts, but will vignette at all but the longest (16mm) focal lengths.

 

[joshua csehak]

The discussion of "crop factors" would seem to be mostly for people new to cinematography or at least coming from the vastly different sensor sizes of video cameras.

I doubt if David Mullen or other serious cinematographers are thinking in terms of crop factors.

Let's not get into a stills-vs-motion thing here. If you're used to still photography, it's very helpful to know that if you're shooting S35, you probably want to use your 50mm for portraits instead of the 80mm you usually use, and there's nothing wrong with that. By the same token, if a "serious" cinematographer decided to shoot some stills one day, it would be silly to imply he's any less skilled if he thinks in terms of a 0.625 crop factor.

 

[Stefan Christou]

Crop factors for film should always go horizontally not vertically as in film the horizontal is used to figure out what a normal crop will be not the diagonal. Unless you are shooting stills.

 

[Tom Lowe]

FYI, I believe that Jim has stated that the Epic FF35 Monstro will be able to window its sensor to ANY SIZE, on the fly, down to the pixel. In other words, you could slap a 14mm Master Prime on the FF35 body and tell the sensor to only record the exact image circle size covered by that particular lens. Fucking amazing if true.

I think Jim said that.... or was I dreaming??

 

[Andrew Walker]

FYI, I believe that Jim has stated that the Epic FF35 Monstro will be able to window its sensor to ANY SIZE, on the fly, down to the pixel. In other words, you could slap a 14mm Master Prime on the FF35 body and tell the sensor to only record the exact image circle size covered by that particular lens. Fucking amazing if true.

I think Jim said that.... or was I dreaming??

I remember hearing the same thing so I believe its as real as it can be.

 

[Häakon]

I'd say in my opinion, a FF35 sensor where a cropped portion of the sensor to S35 size was 5K (so obviously FF35 would be much higher resolution) and if you finished at 5K, this would give you the advantage of shooting FF35 or S35 for when the situation dictates.

It depends on the sensor design of course, but if you're talking FF35 and S35 EPIC cameras, the S35 camera will actually give you more resolution at S35 size than the FF35 camera does when it's cropped. You should also note that the aspect ratios of the two chips are not the same; the S35 is much wider (2:1 vs. 3:2). Therefore, unless you're shooting the FF35 camera with FF35 glass, I don't see much advantage in choosing it over the S35 (besides the fact that the FF35 camera uses a Monstro chip - which we know nothing about yet).

 

[Rick Burnett]

It depends on the sensor design of course, but if you're talking FF35 and S35 EPIC cameras, the S35 camera will actually give you more resolution at S35 size than the FF35 camera does when it's cropped. You should also note that the aspect ratios of the two chips are not the same; the S35 is much wider (2:1 vs. 3:2). Therefore, unless you're shooting the FF35 camera with FF35 glass, I don't see much advantage in choosing it over the S35 (besides the fact that the FF35 camera uses a Monstro chip - which we know nothing about yet).

For myself personally, I am an S35 guys But yes, the pixel density and the H vs W of the sensor certainly dictate all of this.

 

[Vincent Rice]

I've been shooting FF35 stills for 40 years. Lens choices are easy and instinctive for me at that size. Its extremely helpful to have some idea of the relationship of the focal lengths of 1/3, 2/3, S16, APC(x), S35, etc. sized systems so I can at least visualise shots. Had I been shooting feature films from the age of 10 I'm sure it would be different.

 

[Wayne Morellini]

Sensors: Cinema v Stills Terminology & Rough Guide

This information is spread across the site in various threads. It might be useful as a rough ‘at a glance’ guide (with the caveat that some figures are approximate, not all source posts are RED official and everything is subject to change......of course).


2/3" - 3072 x 1620 - 3K
10.1x 5.35mm MX
native 16:9 aspect ratio, approx 11.5mm diagonal,
3.3 micron pixels, approx: 5 mpx, 3.75 FOV crop factor.

R1 - 4520 x 2540 - 4K
24.4 x 13.7mm Mysterium
native 16:9 aspect ratio, approx 28mm diagonal,
5.4 micron pixels, approx: 12mpx, 1.5 FOV crop factor (APS-C).

S35 - 5120 x 2700 - 5K
30x15mm MX
native 16:9 aspect ratio, approx 33.5mm diagonal,
5.4 micron pixels, approx: 14mpx, 1.25 FOV crop factor (APS-H).

FF35 - 6000 x 4000 - 6k
36x24mm Monstro
native 3:2 aspect ratio, approx 43mm diagonal,
6 micron pixels, approx: 24mpx, 0 crop factor (FF DSLR).

645 - 9334 x 7000 - 9k
56 x 42mm Monstro
native 4:3 aspect ratio, approx 70mm diagonal,
approx: 65 mpx, 0.6 crop factor (MF).

617 - 28000 x 9334 - 28k
168 x 56mm Monstro
native 3:1 aspect ratio, approx 177mm diagonal,
approx: 261 mpx, 0.25 crop factor (MF).


Crop Factor refers to Field of View (FOV) crop factor, or Focal Length Multiplier (FLM), referenced to Full-Frame 35mm.

APS-C (Canon1.6, Nikon1.5): Canon 7D, 550D, Nikon D300s, D90.
APS-H (Canon 1.3 crop): Canon 1D MkIV. Leica M8/8.2.
FF: Canon 1Ds MkIII and 5D. Nikon D3s/x and D700. Leica M9.
MF (Medium Format): Hasselblad, Leaf, Mamiya, Pentax, Phase, LeicaS2.

That's interesting, I thought they were going to keep the same pixel pad size in between the epic and the scarlet with similar performance.

 

[David Rasberry]

All of Reds sensors so far are not native 16:9 ratio. They are 1.89:1 2k/4k digital cinema ratio.
Epics retain same pixel size as R1 at 5.4 microns.
Scarlet 2/3" 3.3 micron last reported. Scarlet is 3k at about the same size as Epic 2k.

 

[David Mullen ASC]

I find comparing diagonals very confusing because not all sensors have the same aspect ratio -- and generally I don't pick a focal length lens for its diagonal view, most of the time it's for its horizontal view, occasionally for the vertical view.

If one is going to compare diagonal view, you'd have to pick a common aspect ratio.

 

[Rick Burnett]

I find comparing diagonals very confusing because not all sensors have the same aspect ratio -- and generally I don't pick a focal length lens for its diagonal view, most of the time it's for its horizontal view, occasionally for the vertical view.

If one is going to compare diagonal view, you'd have to pick a common aspect ratio.

Thanks for saying this, now I don't feel crazy I too pick mostly based on horizontal view and I find the diagonals very confusing as well when comparing.

 

[G Lap]

For those looking at that table (originally posted in April last year) please remember that it was written from a stills perspective and intended only as a 'rough guide', hence the 'approximate' and other caveats in the preamble. Dimensions were those for the full sensor, ie including look around and taking no account of windowing. The aspect ratio was included only to indicate how DSMC differs from the more usual 3:2/4:3 of the traditional stills world.

For the various windowed areas, this is more definitive: http://reduser.net/forum/showpost.php?p=582883&postcount=83 (everything subject to change, of course).

 

[Kwan Khan]

thanks