5D VS RED ONE

[Chi Ying Chan]

From CML

"Shame every digital camera doesn't have an intervalometer built in. How are
those that are shooting DLSR HD dealing with the aliasing and codec issues?
I've tried it of course, but thought the resulting imagery was
professionally unusable (except at reduced size), plus in the case of the GH-1
especially, excessive compression artifacts."
Tim Sassoon
SFD
Santa Monica, CA

Chan Chi Ying
DP HK

 

[Gabe Conroy]

(Thanks GOD is wasn't an HVX. It would have been noisy as hell in all that low light)

Really? Maybe the first one, but I've shot with the 200A in low light and the only frustration I had was in keeping a high shutter speed (personally hate video-y long motion blur). If I had bumped down the shutter speed (like the 5D clearly has), it'd have been no problem.

 

[Tom.Wong]

and with all respect. it's still vimeo compression. you can take very well shot any prosumer camera and put it again R1 with that level of compression and it will make R1 look closer to it. it should always be a full rez copy vs a full rez copy. i don't understand how anybody can be satisfied with just a vimeo comparison. 5d footage looks outstanding, but in the end generally people just go, that's amazing looking HD when i show them a still frame or a clip. i show i still frame or a clip from R1, peopel go, wow, what movie is that? meaning the impression is "wow, now that's cinema"

3000 dollars vs 18,000 dollars+

you get what you pay for.

 

[Joel Kaye]

Really? Maybe the first one, but I've shot with the 200A in low light and the only frustration I had was in keeping a high shutter speed (personally hate video-y long motion blur). If I had bumped down the shutter speed (like the 5D clearly has), it'd have been no problem.

I had the first one, like the 10th one they sold so my memory of the camera isn't great If they've improved it since then that's nice to know. Still, an EX1 is F/1.9 and a 5D can be F/1.2 so I'd be really, really surprised if an HVX could keep up with either of those in low light.

 

[Jonathan L. Bowen]

Yeah c'mon. 5D is a neat little DSLR but it's not in the same class as the R1.

Noah

Agreed. That is really starting to tick me off. "OMG lol why get a RED One lol u can just get a 5D lol its just as good n stuff cuz its tight its like amazing."

Look, it's a freakin' camera, with a video feature. BIG FREAKIN' DEAL. God, talk about overrated. I'm sick of hearing about this stupid thing. My D90 has a video feature too, it's nice, it looks good. It's not for professionals. It is not a pro video camera. It's a pro still camera that has a little gadget video camera. That's it.

 

[Russ Blaise]

GEESH! :confused1:

 

[Gabe Conroy]

I had the first one, like the 10th one they sold so my memory of the camera isn't great If they've improved it since then that's nice to know. Still, an EX1 is F/1.9 and a 5D can be F/1.2 so I'd be really, really surprised if an HVX could keep up with either of those in low light.

They did greatly upgrade the sensor (the HVX200A shares the same sensor as the HPX170). I believe they bumped the ISO from like 300 to 500 if memory serves. Anyway, the HVX is F/1.6...from what I've read the EX1 outperforms the HVX in 1080 60i, but is close otherwise.

Of course all that aside, for me personally, there are a bunch of deal breakers that come along with the 5d, and a couple that come with the EX1, which is why I prefer the HVX.

 

[Roberto Lequeux]

I guess the question you are proposing could be answered like this: Can you imagine how insane it will be once we get Red's quality on a more sensitive sensor?!?!!

Seriously. The low light abilities of the 5D is stunning, and the image quality is phenomenal even without considering the price. But it doesn't hold a candle to Red's IQ.

The comparison is completely "unfair" since many would assume a full histogram as better than a dark image by proposing to compare these two videos. But you have to keep in mind that a project has a look beyond a single scene. A BTS works well with saturated and bright images, and the super shallow DoF looks nice too. But when telling a story, night shots and certain moods benefit from a dark look. These likely contrasts against other scenes not shown on here. And all of the scenes on the trailer seem the types that would benefit or justify a slightly dark look. Human eyes see lower dynamic range under dim lighting, so a flatter image feels more realistic than night shots that are as contrasty as your day shots. This helps make the story feel more real and present. The bar's atmosphere seems nicely dialed down a bit, as most bars are, and it makes sense that it also would be the brightest out of the shots in the rest of video. It all seems like very well motivated dramatic cinematography to me. I am no DP though, so please let me know if I am wrong.

The 5D will continue to offer crazy sensitivity superior to Mysterium-X's ISO800 rating. But we are still to see how equal ISO's compare. We might be pleasantly surprised! We might find that the 7D with its APS-C sensor (~S35) gives us similar 1600ISO histograms to Epic-X's footage under the same light, same lens, and set to the same ISO in post. Only with far superior image quality.

Doesn't it sounds right? Red One is rated at 320ISO, but many would agree that 640ISO looks good. Why not expect, and hope, that the 800ISO rated sensors will be able to give us similar results? One stop without much degradation at all.

The same goes for the 5D. It looks best around 800ISO, right? Sure, noise isn't a big problem till much higher, but the dynamic range or thickness of the image drops off gradually.

I guess what I am wondering is if 800ISO is the "current CMOS-technology frontier". And I believe that Red's probably inches away from Canon's sensors, aside from being ages ahead on compression and other things.

The 5D might be showing us a glimpse of what we might be able to expect from a FF35 Mostro equipped Red! Only with way better than 5D's IQ.

 

[Andy Taplin]

Agreed. That is really starting to tick me off. "OMG lol why get a RED One lol u can just get a 5D lol its just as good n stuff cuz its tight its like amazing."

Look, it's a freakin' camera, with a video feature. BIG FREAKIN' DEAL. God, talk about overrated. I'm sick of hearing about this stupid thing. My D90 has a video feature too, it's nice, it looks good. It's not for professionals. It is not a pro video camera. It's a pro still camera that has a little gadget video camera. That's it.

Surely if a professional uses it to get professional results that people pay him for then by definition it joins the ranks of professional cameras, despite it's shortcomings? The 5D cannot be compared to a RED in many areas, but that does not mean the 5D cannot be considered a professional video camera for the right applications.

 

[Bryce O]

Agreed. That is really starting to tick me off. "OMG lol why get a RED One lol u can just get a 5D lol its just as good n stuff cuz its tight its like amazing."

Look, it's a freakin' camera, with a video feature. BIG FREAKIN' DEAL. God, talk about overrated. I'm sick of hearing about this stupid thing. My D90 has a video feature too, it's nice, it looks good. It's not for professionals. It is not a pro video camera. It's a pro still camera that has a little gadget video camera. That's it.

If in 2 years DSLR's take FF35 at 8k RAW... will that still not be professional?

 

[Gabe Conroy]

Surely if a professional uses it to get professional results that people pay him for then by definition it joins the ranks of professional cameras, despite it's shortcomings?

Not in the sense that it's missing features that are essential for most professional film makers (i.e. manual shutter/iris, footage that can be heavily graded, motion shots that are usuable - esp. for motion 3d tracking). Of course it can be used in certain situations, but as a general purpose camera it just doesn't offer what professional filmmakers typically need.

The point is that regardless of semantics, calling it a professional camera implies it's actually usable like other professional cameras, and this is simply untrue.

 

[Bryce O]

Of course it can be used in certain situations, but as a general purpose camera it just doesn't offer what professional filmmakers typically need.

Hell, neither does the Red One then. For most directors and producers film is still the only choice for professional results. Red One still has some rolling shutter... so that must make it unprofessional in that sense.

 

[Gabe Conroy]

Hell, neither does the Red One then. For most directors and producers film is still the only choice for professional results. Red One still has some rolling shutter... so that must make it unprofessional in that sense.

No, I didn't say the rolling shutter innately made it unprofessional, I said its effect on the footage made it unprofessional. You can have a fast enough rolling shutter that it doesn't effect anything you'd normally film. The 5d doesn't.

The Phantom HD has a rolling shutter too, but I'm pretty sure it'll beat every film camera when it comes to fast motion.

The Red has a much faster rolling shutter than the 5d, leaving only specialized circumstances where you'd need to use a different camera (and then you'd probably need something like a Phantom, not a film camera). The only place film still has an edge on is dynamic range, and again that's a specialized situation.

And even though a lot may refuse to move to digital, like 90% of what they do can be done digitally, so it's not just a case of it failing to give them the tools they need. And I'd say people like Peter Jackson know what they're doing (plus the stuff he does would tend to put the most strains on the theoretical limits of Red).

 

[Andy Taplin]

The point is that regardless of semantics, calling it a professional camera implies it's actually usable like other professional cameras, and this is simply untrue.

All cameras fill a particular niche. The 5D's niche is smaller than some other cameras - like the camera on a PoleCam. Just because it's not a conventional broadcast camera does not mean it's not a professional tool, just a specialised one.

Technology is bringing about a paradigm shift in our industry as it has in many others. The notion of what is 'professional' and what's not is changing - it already has in post production where FCP was not seen as professional (and still isn't) by some in the AVID community. FCP is now the most widely used NLE from Hollywood to the wedding video guys.

 

[Gabe Conroy]

All cameras fill a particular niche. The 5D's niche is smaller than some other cameras - like the camera on a PoleCam. Just because it's not a conventional broadcast camera does not mean it's not a professional tool, just a specialised one.

Well, see this is semantics. By that same logic the XL1 is a professional camera because they shot 28 Days Later with it. But it's not, it's considered a prosumer camera. What I'm saying is you can't be in a tiny little niche of professional use and be called a professional camera. It has to be usable in a fairly general professional manner, not just a niche. (And in case you bring it up, a niche camera like the Phantom HD is professional because its niche is pretty much exclusively professional in nature)

Bottom line, you should never be deciding between a 5D and a Red camera if you're looking for general purpose professional cinema camera. This right away is a tip-off that the 5D isn't a professional camera.

Technology is bringing about a paradigm shift in our industry as it has in many others. The notion of what is 'professional' and what's not is changing - it already has in post production where FCP was not seen as professional (and still isn't) by some in the AVID community. FCP is now the most widely used NLE from Hollywood to the wedding video guys.

Yeah, but it's not that what's "professional" is lowering, it's that the "cheaper" offerings are raising up into the "professional" level. I'm not disqualifying the 5D based on its price or heritage, just on its usability. Final Cut is perfectly usable generally for mainstream feature films, so why shouldn't it be considered professional?

 

[Andy Taplin]

Well, see this is semantics. By that same logic the XL1 is a professional camera because they shot 28 Days Later with it. But it's not, it's considered a prosumer camera. What I'm saying is you can't be in a tiny little niche of professional use and be called a professional camera. It has to be usable in a fairly general professional manner, not just a niche. (And in case you bring it up, a niche camera like the Phantom HD is professional because its niche is pretty much exclusively professional in nature)

Bottom line, you should never be deciding between a 5D and a Red camera if you're looking for general purpose professional cinema camera. This right away is a tip-off that the 5D isn't a professional camera

I'm not saying the 5D an alternative to a Red for most situations or that it's the only camera you'll need. It has some useful creative possibilities at a unique price point and like many others I'm investigating its potential - but it won't stop me buying a Scarlet.

If all that matters is whether the 5D is a professional video camera or not then I agree with you that the 5D is not manufactured or marketed as such. However I don't think that's important. It combines several features like interchangeable lenses and a full-frame, highly sensitive sensor which elevate it to a level where many professionals are using it, despite codec and ergonomics. Usability is irrelevant if its used within its limitations. My Ikegami DV7 is a professional broadcast camera but of course it's limited to certain types of work.

As a final thought on this: You mentioned the XL1. Over here in the UK the pro hire companies used to stock the XL1 and one company had a whole department dedicated to it, designing bespoke accessories. The pro indie and documentary filmmakers who quickly realised its potential did not care whether it was professional or not, merely that it provided them with another tool.

 

[Gabe Conroy]

I'm not saying the 5D an alternative to a Red for most situations or that it's the only camera you'll need. It has some useful creative possibilities at a unique price point and like many others I'm investigating its potential - but it won't stop me buying a Scarlet.

If all that matters is whether the 5D is a professional video camera or not then I agree with you that the 5D is not manufactured or marketed as such. However I don't think that's important. It combines several features like interchangeable lenses and a full-frame, highly sensitive sensor which elevate it to a level where many professionals are using it, despite codec and ergonomics. Usability is irrelevant if its used within its limitations. My Ikegami DV7 is a professional broadcast camera but of course it's limited to certain types of work.

As a final thought on this: You mentioned the XL1. Over here in the UK the pro hire companies used to stock the XL1 and one company had a whole department dedicated to it, designing bespoke accessories. The pro indie and documentary filmmakers who quickly realised its potential did not care whether it was professional or not, merely that it provided them with another tool.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

I was just emphasizing the distinction between these tools and the high-end cinema cameras.

 

[Andy Taplin]

I was just emphasizing the distinction between these tools and the high-end cinema cameras.

Once we get Scarlet/Epic the game changes again - affordable high-end cinema for everyone!:thumbup:

 

[Justyn Rowe]

I'm eagerly anticipating the announcement to see timeframes and to see the whole expectations thing come to play. As for the 5D and other cameras, what will happen when they get their video hardware up to their still capabilities? Their sensor is already larger than the Red1, so when they can get from shooting 6 or 8 still frames at high rez to say 30 or 60, then who's to say what is professional or not.

Also, for a lot of us.. myself included.. I'm looking for a great camera that will deliver a stunning image on some small theater screens and home sets. I'm producing a feature and I want 3 cameras for the duration of production.. and at the pricepoint for the Scarlet.. I'm stoked. I'll buy 3 camera bodies and rent the lenses and then when I'm done I won't have a 100k in rentals...

 

[Aaron Newsome]

I'm just glad to see a comparison of cameras that exist.