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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

#4K4ALL

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Got to agree with Nick and Ben on this. The simple truth is that with Weapon Red has swung for both imaging excellence and industry practical form factor. It will take some time for converts but it is happening a little helped with stuff like Netflix requirements etc... I think people get a taste of it and like what they find if they give it a chance.

Red should not play in the cheap-ass camera game. UrsaMini 4.6 and C300M2 kind of triangulate where the usable competition is at. Strike anywhere in that price matrix with a 4K 120fps RedRaw (at least 5:1 hopefully) that is full frame sharp readout and the Weapon conveniences (a little pro rez/auto black shade) and honestly that will create some serious headwind for the competition.
 
As far as I am aware the most popular camera in that arena at the moment is the FS7, which a year after it was released has only just now cleared its backorders and continues to be in demand in the way that C300s used to.

In a sense it is massively underpriced for what it offers in terms of image quality and recording specs and so in a sense I think its price is a bit of a red herring as it is certainly competing in both the market above AND below the one its price point might suggest. Not sure that the C300 mk2 will match it on features front, and certainly not on the price front, and no idea about the IQ front, but Red's offering could come in around the C300mk2 price and blow away anyone putting IQ as their top priority.
 
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FS7 is very good - so is A7S and the new A7R2 is great. Sony definitely took advantage of Canon's slow progress to get in there. I think Canon color still is preferred or at least that is what I often hear, but they hobbled themselves with no in-camera 4K 60fps. For Red the dance will be to come in price wise as low as they can or dare - but a Weapon form 4K 120fps with red raw and auto B (put xlr out on it if you like:)) etc is worth a premium. Red cannot afford to go back to MX or any of that nonsense, the last thing Red needs is to make a camera for ALL and then under deliver on what they are capable of in IQ. Because if they did that ALL who bought the camera would rain hate all over and who needs that? They have to over-deliver for price - which I think they can well afford to do - just as Sony did. And it may upset a few people for various reasons but that's the path I think.
 
Certainly the sweet spot is somewhere in there I think. To have the specs and lightness of the FS7 but with Redcode and 4k 120fps and be priced at $15,000 would make everyone about to drop money on a C300mk2 think twice.

Not only is there a huge market for that for owner/operators, and I am pretty certain I could earn a return on that, but as mentioned before having multiple B/C/D/Gimbal/Aerial cams on larger productions would be great too.
 
Tarquin Cardona said:
FS7 is very good - so is A7S and the new A7R2 is great. Sony definitely took advantage of Canon's slow progress to get in there. I think Canon color still is preferred or at least that is what I often hear, but they hobbled themselves with no in-camera 4K 60fps. For Red the dance will be to come in price wise as low as they can or dare - but a Weapon form 4K 120fps with red raw and auto B (put xlr out on it if you like:)) etc is worth a premium. Red cannot afford to go back to MX or any of that nonsense, the last thing Red needs is to make a camera for ALL and then under deliver on what they are capable of in IQ. Because if they did that ALL who bought the camera would rain hate all over and who needs that? They have to over-deliver for price - which I think they can well afford to do - just as Sony did. And it may upset a few people for various reasons but that's the path I think.
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I totally agree
 
Selfishly speaking, I just hope I don't regret taking the bait and upgrading my Scarlet to Dragon prior to NAB last year. Jarred said previously that the indie crowd wouldn't be left behind with Weapon and maybe this is what that promise was about.

I'd love to be able to get into the Weapon ecosystem so as to stay current going forward, but would hate to have to take a step backward in image quality or functionality to do so. Is this the inflection point where one has to decide whether to jump from Scarlet Dragon "up" to the full Weapon line, or go "sideways" (or slightly down?) to get on the train of 4K4ALL? Pondering.

Looking forward to the 25th, just to know.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Selfishly speaking, I just hope I don't regret taking the bait and upgrading my Scarlet to Dragon prior to NAB last year. Jarred said previously that the indie crowd wouldn't be left behind with Weapon and maybe this is what that promise was about.

I'd love to be able to get into the Weapon ecosystem so as to stay current going forward, but would hate to have to take a step backward in image quality or functionality to do so. Is this the inflection point where one has to decide whether to jump from Scarlet Dragon "up" to the full Weapon line, or go "sideways" (or slightly down?) to get on the train of 4K4ALL? Pondering.

Looking forward to the 25th, just to know.
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Does seem difficult to figure where the RAVEN fits. I'm in for the CF Weapon 8k so I'm not worried about this camera getting too close to my specs. But putting myself in the shoes of the SCARLET owners and even the EPIC DRAGON owners, I would be concerned.

If this camera does come in at a low price-point, I can see this as being an eventual B camera for me and thus, a good buy. I think they have to make the body out of an inexpensive material to justify a low price to current camera owners. Maybe they could do a very low-price up-downgrade (whichever it is) swap with SCARLET owners to get them to a Weapon form factor, and sell the SCARLETS as BT cameras. I would buy a BT DRAGON SCARLET in a heartbeat as a B camera.

Not sure if a shrinking economy affects RED's sales very much, but if it does the RAVEN has to start low and reflect re-used sensors (if that is correct) and paid for R & D to retain/increase market share.

Welcome to the Saudi oil play.
 
Elsie N said:
Does seem difficult to figure where the RAVEN fits. I'm in for the CF Weapon 8k so I'm not worried about this camera getting too close to my specs. But putting myself in the shoes of the SCARLET owners and even the EPIC DRAGON owners, I would be concerned.

If this camera does come in at a low price-point, I can see this as being an eventual B camera for me and thus, a good buy. I think they have to make the body out of an inexpensive material to justify a low price to current camera owners. Maybe they could do a very low-price up-downgrade (whichever it is) swap with SCARLET owners to get them to a Weapon form factor, and sell the SCARLETS as BT cameras. I would buy a BT DRAGON SCARLET in a heartbeat as a B camera.

Not sure if a shrinking economy affects RED's sales very much, but if it does the RAVEN has to start low and reflect re-used sensors (if that is correct) and paid for R & D to retain/increase market share.

Welcome to the Saudi oil play.
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Not sure there is much to worry about. I am an Epic Dragon owner. Love it. But I think many felt the price options to upgrade for the new Weapon style body and some of its options were too steep, and maybe some of it was frankly more than necessary for people who know the workflow well enough and do work where Dragon specs are over kill. I get crap all the time for shooting 6K 4:1 for a 1080 finish. Probably rightfully so. Maybe this will be a more affordable path to Weapon style for anyone who wants to take that path. Dragon and above is 6K on the path to 8K. It is in Red's interests I believe to keep as many folks in the family as possible and this may be the next best option. I am open to anything that gives me Red IQ in an ever easier to use form to make great images and a simpler technical life. Bring it on.
 
I dont know why RED would make a aerial camera when all their cameras can be used even on MoVI M10 no problem at all. Every RED camera is small and light. Arri had to release the Alexa Mini because their cameras are big and heavy.
But ALL cameras from RED are already aerial cameras.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Selfishly speaking, I just hope I don't regret taking the bait and upgrading my Scarlet to Dragon prior to NAB last year. Jarred said previously that the indie crowd wouldn't be left behind with Weapon and maybe this is what that promise was about.

I'd love to be able to get into the Weapon ecosystem so as to stay current going forward, but would hate to have to take a step backward in image quality or functionality to do so. Is this the inflection point where one has to decide whether to jump from Scarlet Dragon "up" to the full Weapon line, or go "sideways" (or slightly down?) to get on the train of 4K4ALL? Pondering.

Looking forward to the 25th, just to know.
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I bought a Scarlet Dragon recently. I'd just be rolling my eyes if they lowered the price on it to somehow fit the Raven into the offerings but I really wouldn't care. What was, and is, important to me is the Dragon sensor and being in that world, which will not change for me regardless what the Raven is. Scarlet Dragon, Epic Dragon are current. Who knows at this point but just following along with the current speculation where Raven is an entry level indie cam, or drone cam, what does a 4K Dragon in a Weapon body actually get you above an SD? Something lighter maybe? I wouldn't give up 5K FF and an interchangeable mount for it.
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Selfishly speaking, I just hope I don't regret taking the bait and upgrading my Scarlet to Dragon prior to NAB last year. Jarred said previously that the indie crowd wouldn't be left behind with Weapon and maybe this is what that promise was about.

I'd love to be able to get into the Weapon ecosystem so as to stay current going forward, but would hate to have to take a step backward in image quality or functionality to do so. Is this the inflection point where one has to decide whether to jump from Scarlet Dragon "up" to the full Weapon line, or go "sideways" (or slightly down?) to get on the train of 4K4ALL? Pondering.

Looking forward to the 25th, just to know.
Click to expand...


I pretty much believe that the Raven is the Scarlet Dragon upgrade into the WPN body style / internals. Same Dragon sensor, just hobbled on speed / frame rates from the WPN Mg. Just like WPN Mg is a hobbled version of the the WPN C.

Same process that led to Scarlet from the Epic line - 'Hey we've got these chips that test out sub-par..."
 
Hey what you say is possible. But the term "Sub par" is a lousy marketing concept however it is parsed:) I'd would just love to be the Sub Par cam owner operator.
 
At this point, I just wish Red would just announce the damn thing and get it over with. Teasing and hyping only allows people here to fantasize and come up with wild predictions about what is on the horizon. Most of those predictions will be false and we will probably be dissapointed when we have two possible outcomes: A. The specs are awesome but the price is not exactly 4ALL like we hoped (a side note, affordability is relative. What I think is affordable and what Jarred thinks is affordable are probably very different. With the kind of projects I work on, an affordable 4k cam is something like the GH4 and A7S, something sub $3k. Reds idea of an affordable 4k cam could be $15k which could be considered affordable if you are comparing it to the 8k FF weapon). Or B. The price is indeed low but there is some kind of catch like a dirt cheap body that requires a couple grand worth of accessories to make it production ready. Maybe the low cost requires a major spec downgrade like old MX sensors, a 4/3 sensor. Anyone hoping for Reds version of the Ursa Mini 4.6k at a similar price is setting themselves up for disappointment. Black magic has had to make sacrifices in order to pull off such a low price and those cut corners give us cameras that can make beautiful pictures but can hardly be considered reliable. Sony teased their new 4k cam and the speculation got out of hand. People started to expect a compact cam with the a7s FF sensor in a production form factor with internal 10 bit 422 4k. What did we get? A watered down FS7 with a crappy 8 bit codec that was only a little less expensive then the FS7. I was dissapointed. I hope Red gives us something awesome but I'm keeping my expectations in check.
 
Tarquin Cardona said:
FS7 is very good - so is A7S and the new A7R2 is great. Sony definitely took advantage of Canon's slow progress to get in there. I think Canon color still is preferred or at least that is what I often hear, but they hobbled themselves with no in-camera 4K 60fps. For Red the dance will be to come in price wise as low as they can or dare - but a Weapon form 4K 120fps with red raw and auto B (put xlr out on it if you like:)) etc is worth a premium. Red cannot afford to go back to MX or any of that nonsense, the last thing Red needs is to make a camera for ALL and then under deliver on what they are capable of in IQ. Because if they did that ALL who bought the camera would rain hate all over and who needs that? They have to over-deliver for price - which I think they can well afford to do - just as Sony did. And it may upset a few people for various reasons but that's the path I think.
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Related: Sony just announced a firmware update to 14 bit raw processing for stills in their A7 series of cams. I'm sure what ever RED has coming will be way better than that.
 
Zeb B said:
Related: Sony just announced a firmware update to 14 bit raw processing for stills in their A7 series of cams. I'm sure what ever RED has coming will be way better than that.
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Zeb - Is this only for stills? I assumed it was for motion, too, but wasn't very diligent in my reading. My only thought was the data rate for it would be HUGE.
 
Tarquin Cardona said:
Not sure there is much to worry about. I am an Epic Dragon owner. Love it. But I think many felt the price options to upgrade for the new Weapon style body and some of its options were too steep, and maybe some of it was frankly more than necessary for people who know the workflow well enough and do work where Dragon specs are over kill. I get crap all the time for shooting 6K 4:1 for a 1080 finish. Probably rightfully so. Maybe this will be a more affordable path to Weapon style for anyone who wants to take that path. Dragon and above is 6K on the path to 8K. It is in Red's interests I believe to keep as many folks in the family as possible and this may be the next best option. I am open to anything that gives me Red IQ in an ever easier to use form to make great images and a simpler technical life. Bring it on.
Click to expand...

Preciesely. The Weapon upgrade while a good value to some, is incredibly high for me. So many things in terms of features i'll never use. Mostly ProRes.

Basically a Epic Dragon in a smaller, lighter body, without the need for black shading.
 
Jeffrey Loewe said:
Preciesely. The Weapon upgrade while a good value to some, is incredibly high for me. So many things in terms of features i'll never use. Mostly ProRes.

Basically a Epic Dragon in a smaller, lighter body, without the need for black shading.
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Amen
 
Terry VerHaar said:
Zeb - Is this only for stills? I assumed it was for motion, too, but wasn't very diligent in my reading. My only thought was the data rate for it would be HUGE.
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Looks like Stills only . . . but even their official PR is confusing:
https://alphauniverse.com/stories/s...it-raw-still-image-capture-for-new---cameras/

“The addition of Uncompressed 14-Bit RAW processing is a direct result of customer feedback. Widely requested by photo and video enthusiasts, we believe the choice of RAW processing types will further elevate the performance of these extraordinary cameras.”

"Video enthusiasts" . . . WTF does that mean?

Regardless, I'm sure RED is well aware of the incredible fast changing market and will be delivering something huge with Raven / 4Kall.
 
Haha - any video "enthusiasts" wanting to shoot 14-bit uncompressed raw footage for their vacation footage had better own a storage company.
 
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