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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

#4K4ALL

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Phil Holland said:
Bingo. Yep indeed. Weapon Forged CF and Woven CF can do 24fps (and 25fps) 5K FF at 2:1 REDCODE RAW Compression Ratio.

What's absolutely sick is that you are getting essentially pure RAW stream fidelity with no visible evidence of any lossly compression at that point while still getting the benefit of the smaller file size. This is huge actually.

6K and 5.5K seem to be at 3:1 which is also huge in my mind. I'm very curious about the minimum compression ratio on 8K. We've seen 5:1 thus far. I'm wondering if 4:1 is attainable still. I think 8K WS might allow for 4:1.

Oh, and anamorphic shooters, 6K 6:5 can be 2:1 at 24fps. Which to me means 8K 6:5, which will 100% be a format people use for anamorphic features will have a nice and low minimum REDCODE compression ratio.
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Of course Sony and Blackmagic are also in that "slightly compressed" sweet spot between 4:1 and 1.5:1.

I do wonder how the RED SCARLET DRAGON's 4K 60p 13:1 compressed RAW will fare against Ursa Mini's 4.6K 60p 3:1 compressed RAW...

Hopefully we don't have to wait long to find out! My friend's supposed to get one of those 4.6K turret upgrades for his big Ursa, soon. Which I will have to stop teasing him about, I guess. I'll get that and my friend's Epic / Weapon Dragon and the F35 and the Alexa and the a7rII and test. Weapon Dragon should give me a good enough idea about the RAVEN.

I'm one of the first 5 or so in line at Hot Rod Cameras for the 4.6K Mini Ursa, so I need to decide whether to go Ursa or RAVEN (or stick with borrowing F35 / Dragon / using DSLRs like the NX1 and a7s and a7rII into my Odyssey, depending on the scale of the shoot). At least I'll be putting my money where my mouth is and will let you guys know :)

Bruce Allen
www.twitter.com/bruce_allen
 
Bruce Allen said:
Of course Sony and Blackmagic are also in that "slightly compressed" sweet spot between 4:1 and 1.5:1.

I do wonder how the RED SCARLET DRAGON's 4K 60p 13:1 compressed RAW will fare against Ursa Mini's 4.6K 60p 3:1 compressed RAW...

Bruce Allen
www.twitter.com/bruce_allen
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I can't even begin to imagine how LARGE those 3:1 file sizes at 4K 60p must be - for URSA mini.

If we take REDCODE as a comparison, 4KHD 60fps at 12:1 is 64MB/sec, and shoots 137mins on a 512 SSD.

If that RECODE were 3:1, it would be 256MB/sec, and shoot only 34.25mins over a 512 SSD.

So Ursa Mini at 4K 60fps may reach a TERABYTE an HOUR. That's only 50% less than what the ARRI 65 records!!! (2TB/hour)

Over time, the Scarlet Dragon may actually SAVE YOU MONEY by reducing amount of Hard Drives needed, and time spent by DIT transfering data.

There is a (dare I say silent) penalty to shooting that UNCOMPRESSED at 4K....especially (and ironicaly) for indie filmmakers on lower budget shoots.

Yes, the URSA is affordable. But that workflow (esp for highspeed), may not be - especially with file sizes that large, and demand for drives/transfers that much more extreme.

That's one of the beauties in my mind of REDCODE, and why RED has always been a fantastic ally to entrepreneurial indies. REDCODE is a fantastic capture medium that strikes a nice balance btw resolution and file size...

Just thinking out loud here...


PS, according to Scarlet Dragon manual, 4K 60fps compression is 13:1, and 4K HD 60fps is 12:1.
 
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Luke Neumann said:
(regarding scaling)… Is it possible to get that worked in, via firmware, to Redcode for Dragon and other cameras?
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Redcode isn't debayered… I'd say that—and not the compression—is the main thing.

On another note: I thought that once you get just below 3:1 in compression with a wavelet codec like Redcode you enter actual lossless compression. No reason to compress it less than that.
 
Nick Morrison said:
I can't even begin to imagine how LARGE those 3:1 file sizes at 4K 60p must be - for URSA mini.
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Yes, a real weakness. Or rather—the option is fine, but it's for posers and procrastination: shoot water drops on a window… (ohhhh) blur out a few traffic lights and watch the blinking bokeh accompanied by artsy music (ahhhh)...

No. Aggressive compression is where it's at. But we still want the IQ to be intact. A contradiction in terms it seems. Nonetheless, efficiency is the goal. The same as in all performance driven activities.

The boats in America's Cup are pushed to the extreme. They just barely don't break. But sometimes the do anyway in the hunt for speed and weight reduction.

In commercial aviation the envelope is pushed everyday to lower prices and increase capacity. Tagline: safe enough.

That's what it's about, even at the highest end: good enough. If it's visually lossless and has enough bit depth… that's what I want to shoot. ProRes HQ is a real good starting place in my book. Good enough and can go straight into post.
 
There's a lot of unrealistic theories in here. Making a new camera that has almost the same as all the others is not going to happen, it's just not a good strategy. This new camera, if "marketed" as 4KFORALL, it's meant to be cheap and give 4K for all. It's not going to have a special 4:3 Ana sensor or super high speed sensor at 4K. It's probably going to have a 4K or 4.5K only mode with a lot of compression or rather ProRes only. It's a sane road to go for a low end Red solution, especially since the rest of the market shoot to formats like ProRes. It's a good way to get new customers into the Red family of cameras, to show them that this is what you get with ProRes, but if you want the real quality you need R3D. It might also be a serious DSLR killer and for that they need something really cheap but better than say cameras like the Sony A7s II.

Imagine a Red camera that shoots 4K ProRes at up to 60 Fps while having a camera body which enables SDI out, timecode and all the other professional equipment you need for serious work.
It's going to be the camera everyone shoots with, no one would want a DSLR if they can get that for say $4000

As for the RAW vs uncompressed vs compressed etc.
People who's never been involved with a project and all the costs it demand and who just look at image quality of the cameras will never get that one of the most important aspects of shooting is the workflow. The R3D compressed RAW is the single best way to get super high quality delivery from a small file sized format. I have NEVER seen any other format rival this.

If someone is going to buy a camera I would suggest them doing a production budget (even if it's just a theoretical budget), to understand how much it's actually going to cost them working with the camera they choose.
 
Nick Morrison said:
I can't even begin to imagine how LARGE those 3:1 file sizes at 4K 60p must be - for URSA mini.

If we take REDCODE as a comparison, 4KHD 60fps at 12:1 is 64MB/sec, and shoots 137mins on a 512 SSD.

If that RECODE were 3:1, it would be 256MB/sec, and shoot only 34.25mins over a 512 SSD.

So Ursa Mini at 4K 60fps may reach a TERABYTE an HOUR. That's only 50% less than what the ARRI 65 records!!! (2TB/hour)

Over time, the Scarlet Dragon may actually SAVE YOU MONEY by reducing amount of Hard Drives needed, and time spent by DIT transfering data.
Click to expand...

Sure! For speed, I'd guess you'd want to archive to a few 1TB SSDs on set, which can be bought for like $350 or so. That's what I do presently anyway for stuff - laptop plus 1TB Samsung 850 drives is mobile and fast and cheap.

And when you take it to DaVinci Resolve and need a lot of space... check the "HOW I BOUGHT A 40TB RAID FOR $2500" thread:
http://www.reduser.net/forum/showth...-With-2200mbs-RAID-0-1-or-5&highlight=toshiba

Or if you want something more fancy:
- Synology 1815+ ($1000)
- 8x6TB 7200RPM NAS drives ($2160)
And you have a nifty 36TB or so of RAID-6 protected, high speed network-shareable storage that should have you sorted for a lot of projects.

Buy another one and use the second for backup sets or for archiving projects (take the 8 drive set out, put it in a Pelican case and store off-site, then put in another 8 drive set).

Bruce Allen
www.twitter.com/bruce_allen
 
RED has consciously chosen to remain high end. It was a Rebel when it announced RED One with 17k usd price. However, it is common knowledge these days for mass market it is better to derive the economies of scale associated with manufacturing in India and China. However, RED has decided to manufacture only in US so the cost would be high. To make more profits from a lower volume (as compared to mass market), one has to focus on premium products. I am sure RED doesn't want to be just a boutique company with low volume high end products. Hopefully RED knows that there is "value at the bottom of the pyramid", a term first coined by Management Guru C. K. Prahalad.

Not all of us have the clientele to afford the top end Weapons. With the entry of lower cost cameras from other manufacturers, some of the traditional projects are going to lower cost warriors. We hear that good is not great. Now tell that to the producers. When an iphone has 4k, the producer will inevitably ask us why we are charging higher for 4k. I ban those kinds of producers, however, their tribe is growing. :(

A lot of us are loyal to that original vision of RED about 3k for 3k. Now that vision needs to be revisited, upgraded to 4K for a suitable price and materialised.
I don't need that 100 fps. Just give me 60p at 4k. However, give me high ISO and standard media. I know the attraction of proprietary media, however, please give us the ability to plug and play media that can bought off the shelf. Hopefully RED can create an affordable and world class camera.

Clayton Moore said:
Like Apple companies don’t choose to release products into the market just to be nice guys. If there was no profit to be made in a lower priced model it would make no sense for RED to do so. According to Doug Sheer, CEO of D.I.S. Consulting, between the residual of the 2008 crash and the current free fall of prices, there are a lot of manufacturers in this business that are hanging by a thread and are prime candidates for acquisition. There is no reason to believe RED is one of those companies but the point of bringing that up is - within that current market context, If RED were able to sustain their business model by staying only at the high end price point, it would make no sense for them to do any differently right now. So somehow they need to do this.
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sam karr said:
The moire in that ursa footage is worrying.
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There was moire only in one shot in the blue suit. It was shot in 1080p so this doesn't surprise me. Shoot 4K and you don't have to worry about that blue suit anymore.
 
#‎RAVEN4K120fps‬

4K at 120fps... I'm more than interested... I have a hard time imaging a camera under 10K able to shoot like this but please, give us more info.

I have jobs where bringing the Epic Dragon or the upcoming Weapon sometimes seem way too much... For the last two months I've been thinking about investing in an alternative camera when it comes to shoot quick and fast...

Would Raven be the one?
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
I get your analogy, but it only goes so far. As one of the earliest RED adopters I saw a whole lot of issues in that first year - but over 90% was user error, not any fault of the camera system itself. IMO, BMD engineering got off to a much rougher start.

Cheers - #19
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Also there were still many many full blown movies produced and released theatrically with Red's first camera.
 
Now I start to become pissed off with my new scarlet dragon ....
 
Why? You do not know the specs yet...Scarlet Dragon is a fine camera. Lastly, when has RED ever let customers hanging? I will probably be at a lower price, less features, higher compression...save some energy until specs are given...and keep shooting, make great images and a few bucks...
 
Oooh 4K at 120fps?

I believe I speak for us all when I say

UW0J95L.jpg
 
Christoffer Glans said:
There's a lot of unrealistic theories in here. Making a new camera that has almost the same as all the others is not going to happen, it's just not a good strategy. This new camera, if "marketed" as 4KFORALL, it's meant to be cheap and give 4K for all. It's not going to have a special 4:3 Ana sensor or super high speed sensor at 4K. It's probably going to have a 4K or 4.5K only mode with a lot of compression or rather ProRes only. It's a sane road to go for a low end Red solution, especially since the rest of the market shoot to formats like ProRes. It's a good way to get new customers into the Red family of cameras, to show them that this is what you get with ProRes, but if you want the real quality you need R3D. It might also be a serious DSLR killer and for that they need something really cheap but better than say cameras like the Sony A7s II.

Imagine a Red camera that shoots 4K ProRes at up to 60 Fps while having a camera body which enables SDI out, timecode and all the other professional equipment you need for serious work.

It's going to be the camera everyone shoots with, no one would want a DSLR if they can get that for say $4000
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It's not 4k$ camera if the body is 4k$. You have to add all kind of bits and pieces to be able to use it and after the batteries, chargers and redmags its soon a lot more than 4k$. DSLR is ready to shoot for the price of the body. Then there's the fact that DSLR's are smaller and lighter. And the last thing why very few from the DSLR crowd would buy Raven over DSLR is that people who shoot DSLR's are not going to buy camera that uses rebranded 120GB SSD's that cost 850$ a piece.
 
jamesbridges said:
Why? You do not know the specs yet...Scarlet Dragon is a fine camera. Lastly, when has RED ever let customers hanging? I will probably be at a lower price, less features, higher compression...save some energy until specs are given...and keep shooting, make great images and a few bucks...
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I said "I start", seeing that i can't do 120fps at 4k on a way more expensive camera. No need to patronize. And yeah I must admit that "obsolescence obsolete" became an obsolete mojo lately.
 
Frankly who cares about DSLR shooters? There's a ton of options for them to move up to their first 'proper' cameras including the C100/FS5/FS7/the new Panny etc....

This is clearly a camera for the next tier up of production, which it should be, because in my memory cutting Red requires all the other gear to be that bit better as well to get the best out of it. Better GPU, better raid, better ram etc...
 
sam karr said:
I said "I start", seeing that i can't do 120fps at 4k on a way more expensive camera. No need to patronize. And yeah I must admit that "obsolescence obsolete" became an obsolete mojo lately.
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FOr the record, I jumped ship around the Scarlet to Epic or Scarlet to Scalret Dragon upgrades because I couldn't see a financial reason to do it that would earn a return on the investment. Doesn't stop the Scarlet Dragon from being a formidable camera though - most certainly capable of shooting a movie on. And as with Jarred's hints earlier, who knows, you might have a cheap upgrade path to full Dragon in the pipeline :)
 
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