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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

4K Projectors in 2017

I thought TCL Chinese was the best HDR locally and maybe in the world (from SMPTE meeting held there when they got new projector)?
How does it compare to the two you mention?
Any site that lists projection tech by theatre?
The Dolby 3D/HDR glasses are heavy is only issue I have had - would rather not feel them - gets a little distracting for long movies.
 
Where you wear them on your nose will affect the feeling.
 
Christoffer Glans said:
Why can't there be a gold standard stamp on TV sets that are correctly calibrated and follows industry standards?
Click to expand...

THX has their thing. There is also UHD Alliance Premium Certified. Then again there is a THX certified HDR projector which would go against THX being the be-all-end-all or Stacey is ignoring $35k projectors :D.
 
Big glass panels are selling so well I suspect the few CE companies with the right portfolio to develop a 4K projector have little motivation to risk development dollars. Add to that the razor thin margins in the display business these days, corporate risk aversion, etc.

Cheers - #19
 
Thin margins on projectors?

The difference between a 720p display and a 4k would not be much, nor too much between a cheapest model and a brand mid range. Even a branded higher LCD might be much more to the $700 no name set than the midrange IP licensing though, might sting, as all the advanced materials in there, even if moderately more expensive to manufacture, might have large licensing costs on the production pushing the price. Patents are bad, you can force payment to manufacture something, and force payment to use it in a product, even to import it into a country. Smoke and mirrors, manufacturers often use stuff these days of it is cheap. Not like the old days when the top end consumer was more cutting edge as well as costly and risky to put out. Now, in the 16k age, we still have 4k instead (yes 16k micro display has been done years ago, I was looking at it for a touch table projector).
 
Actually, I believe the margins on most projectors are substantial. I was referring to the intense competition in the LCD flat panel space. The total revenue from projector sales may be limited by the relatively small number of units sold annually vs LCD panels. Furthermore, lower volume gives you fewer units to spread the NRE costs over, which also incentivizes slower refresh cycles. The big upside is that most projectors are sold into the high end HT market, education, corporate, etc where it's easier to ask higher price points.

Cheers - #19
 
But LCD:s are misleading too. The price between a $300 andna $3k should be a lot closer. Called stratification, and is one of the tricks. If only there was three types per manufacturer Blair, things could he a lot better.
 
Perhaps the question should start with what would the ultimate (home) viewing experience be - and work out what exists, and/or what compromises need work on?

Q1) What screen size do people want?

a) Small Screen : 80 inch diagonal (or smaller)
b) Large Screen : 110 inch diagonal (or larger)

My experience is that (b) is desirable as this increases immersion.

Even when the 77LG OLED comes out - this (77" diagonal) will not meet this preference.

The problem with a huge fixed screen structure, is that (at least in UK homes) bringing one into a house becomes impractical.

AJ
 
Q2) If viewing in the presence of Ambient light is required - what additional requirements?

PROJECTOR SCREENS:
Projector screen materials reflect light and usually have image contrast is awful where ambient light is involved.
Screens that are darker reflect less light .. but kill the maximum brightness of the projector.

Novel Projector screen materials do exist that reflect three narrow bands of colour - and absorb all others.
These look 'Black' to the human eye - except at the RGB colours frequencies (same as Projector primaries).
These Do work in Daylight - however, the projectors are not currently created with these screens specific narrow band reflective frequencies in mind, and so there can be some colour issues. In addition white light Does still include some energies at all frequencies, and so Some RGB is still reflected.

FIXED SCREENS :
Many 2016 screens front material (ie glass) were not designed with ambient light reflection in mind (eg LG OLED) and added a visible TINT to their colours.

AJ
 
Q3) NOISE / LIGHT LEVELS?

PROJECTORS:
LED light sources are becoming more efficient - but Laser light is currently inefficient.
The most recent advancements in the creation of LASER light (that I am aware) is actually through modified Quantum dots (in which the shape of the outside surface is chemically made to look like the outside of an American football, but the inside spherical) - may end up with high efficiency solution - but not any time soon.

Use of remote phosphor (shining blue light on a material on one side, and allowing the phosphor to radiate another colour) creates heat (both in light absorption and filtering).

The project is that this does not SCALE very well. To create HDR images requires the ability to Punch out more light for the same size (volume) projector.
If Lasers projectors are several times less efficient than LED - and pump out increasing amounts of light, they are not going to be quiet any time soon.

FIXED SCREENS :
The 'good thing' about screens is that that they have a surface area scales perfectly with size. Heat does not become more of a problem if dissipated over their surface area. Ultimately - these can be passive (quiet).

AJ
 
Based on the above questions - I actually think that SONY may be on the right track.

1) They have created modular screens that (sort of like Lego) can be used to make a seamless wall.
Each module is physically manageable, only handling 360x360 pixels.

2) Their research found that when the eye sees 'pin pricks' of light, the there is much larger 'halo' perceived as a pixel by people.
Sony's pixels in each module are 99% pure light-absorbing black, with a miniscule light emitting area that only uses 1% of the central pixel area.
The result is very high contrast in high ambient light environments.

3) Their current modules Do currently have fans in them (ie not completely silent). The pinpricks of light are also not yet P3+ gamut.

Having only used projectors in my household for almost two decades - It may well be that my next dream system is one not unlike what Sony are developing.

AJ
 
Antony, welcome. Glad to hear your input.

THX certifications have it. Let us be real, if one is serious, 120-200 inch. Size at distance and focusing strain all play a part in viewing enjoyment. Big heads look 'awesome' effect.

60 inch is OK for editing and viewing, but substandard

They are making multiple panel sets. You literally take the small panels in and assemble seamless looking.

There are more screen types, see my touch table thread.

The 3M screen used on the Laservue TV is one of the best. Combined with black primary filtering and quantum dit color filtering/projection there you have it. LG is up to something with nanocells reducing the color frequencies to the target ones. However, I'm thinking about an alternative to these.

Yes you can design a roll up hangable OLED, but they have drastically reduced color gamut, and show me your mountable 200 inch oled. Oled is not currently the best natch in primaries for large sets. Having wider gamut primaries will dim current large oled. You can use blue with QD color filter painted on, as I previously put out there, now a real contemplation in industry. But, there is a 100% QE electro luminance product. If that is combined in blue with QD color and hdr over a long life cheap panel , you may gave a low heat oled. But I don't know the current life span fragility and specs if these.

The heating of black back lit screen is overcomable.

The tint on oled, you are right, some people could barely believe I think when I reported they were not true black because of this.
 
Looking to buy a greater than 65' 4K TV monitor

Please let me know all your favorite/reasonable 80' and up Flat screen options are

This article helped me leave the idea of getting a projector behind for a lot of reasons.

Appreciate you saving me the time of hunting down a big screen for my large studio, as scrolling through articles and settings is defeating.

Going to be using it for a second/main computer monitor mostly and a tv/movie night often..

Very much appreciated
 
Inside the tube

Inside the tube

FWIW, I have an idea for a hybrid projection system. The "screen" comes on a roll (or is painted a wall), is impregnated with phosphors and has a low voltage supplied. The projector uses wavelengths that excite the phosphors on the screen to produce the image. Think of an old cathode ray tube with an electron gun, only instead of the gun hitting the phosphors on the inside surface of the tube, the "gun" is hitting the phosphors from in front. This would allow the projector to be optimized for pinpoint accuracy using wavelengths that could be outside the visible spectrum. There would be no need to get a color accurate, high intensity image out of the projector as the screen phosphors would be generating the viewable image. Essentially you would map the color and brightness response of the phosphors to create a LUT that you would use to determine the output of each "pixel" produced by the projector.

Thin, flexible screen materials that can also address individual pixels via internal signal distribution is a compelling topology. That said, there are a number of issues that make such a design problematic to manufacture. Laser projection onto a reflective screen has great potential, but, until new methods are developed, the inherent physics of lasers require various kludges to avoid sparkles/color shifts/etc. My hybrid concept puts the color accuracy piece in the realm of the reactive phosphors, not the projected light engine. By freeing the projector from having to generate a finely balanced color gamut in the visible range, you could manage the projected image to suit the phosphor response instead.

As an example, FM radio transmission uses the 88-108MHz band for broadcasting even though humans can't hear in that range. The voice of the DJ is "re-mapped" into a different scale, sent out, then the receiver decodes that signal and plays it for the listener at the original frequency of the DJ's voice. This technique allows broadcasters to use a portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum conducive to long distance transmission, something 20-20,000Hz (nominal human hearing range) is not good for.

I'm suggesting that by looking back at previous technologies and adapting them, there might be a way to create large display tech that avoids the pitfalls of current solutions. To wit, glass panels get too large and heavy above 80", projection that uses passive reflective screens requires very low ambient light and precise, powerful light engines.

Cheers - #19
 
Michael Moreno said:
Looking to buy a greater than 65' 4K TV monitor

Please let me know all your favorite/reasonable 80' and up Flat screen options are

This article helped me leave the idea of getting a projector behind for a lot of reasons.

Appreciate you saving me the time of hunting down a big screen for my large studio, as scrolling through articles and settings is defeating.

Going to be using it for a second/main computer monitor mostly and a tv/movie night often..

Very much appreciated
Click to expand...

I would think you could probably find a grading one under a few hundred thousand (note, if you don't like this answer don't ask it on post subforum for the colorist to answer. Maybe they might like to haveba piece if the sun in their grading rooms to render and grade NASA footage of the sun :) ).

Your options are probably limited. LG OLED and Panasonic are the only ones to get serious look ins as TV's, and next year, whenever displays that are set against rec2020 relative are made, you might like to change it. Of these two, only LG does a larger display in OLED that gangs on the wall. Recent review our there. But seriously, look at the THX site for certified displays (technicolor is doing stuff too). TCL and others keep threatening to certify their displays, and also do a 90%+ rec2020 display for sometime. That sort of brand may do a 84 inch. Some Chinese companies at $5k nearly 4 tears ago. LG has been trying to get companies like changhong and other Chinese makers on board for nano cell displays.
Re: edit: The link below mentions a 86 inch LG nanocell LCD TV.

LG Nano cell, and Samsung QLed I don't known yet what the gamut figures, but top of the line sets are worth a look.

https://hdguru.com/lg-reveals-dual-premium-strategy-on-2017-4k-oled-super-uhd-tvs/

Panasonic has not upgraded their 900/902 series yet. They announced they had a twin shutter pixel which produces about the next best black to OLED, but it is unknown if they will release another 900 series with that thus year, at all. My guess is it will look better than the greyish blacks at my local cinema, which beg, buy a TV for better viewing.

However, the real thing to look out for, is color gamut volume. Color gamut percentages are often quoted at a certain percentage of brightness, but maybe a lot less at other levels. Even LG last year had issues at low brightness details. My guess fixed up, but Panasonic went the full way on their new top OLED, which they have got colorists involved to make it grading worthy. Actually, do they have a 77inch.

https://hdguru.com/review-lgs-signature-65w7-4k-uhd-oled-tv-is-the-best-yet/

Unless you are viewing in darkness ambient light can be picked up by by oled and tint them. But the top Panasonic, and I think maybe LG, have a filter this year to deal with it. If you want to impress in HDR, get a HDR ready one.
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
FWIW, I have an idea for a hybrid projection system. The "screen" comes on a roll (or is painted a wall), is impregnated with phosphors and has a low voltage supplied. The projector uses wavelengths that excite the phosphors on the screen to produce the image. Think of an old cathode ray tube with an electron gun, only instead of the gun hitting the phosphors on the inside surface of the tube, the "gun" is hitting the phosphors from in front. This would allow the projector to be optimized for pinpoint accuracy using wavelengths that could be outside the visible spectrum. There would be no need to get a color accurate, high intensity image out of the projector as the screen phosphors would be generating the viewable image. Essentially you would map the color and brightness response of the phosphors to create a LUT that you would use to determine the output of each "pixel" produced by the projector.

Thin, flexible screen materials that can also address individual pixels via internal signal distribution is a compelling topology. That said, there are a number of issues that make such a design problematic to manufacture. Laser projection onto a reflective screen has great potential, but, until new methods are developed, the inherent physics of lasers require various kludges to avoid sparkles/color shifts/etc. My hybrid concept puts the color accuracy piece in the realm of the reactive phosphors, not the projected light engine. By freeing the projector from having to generate a finely balanced color gamut in the visible range, you could manage the projected image to suit the phosphor response instead.

As an example, FM radio transmission uses the 88-108MHz band for broadcasting even though humans can't hear in that range. The voice of the DJ is "re-mapped" into a different scale, sent out, then the receiver decodes that signal and plays it for the listener at the original frequency of the DJ's voice. This technique allows broadcasters to use a portion of the electro-magnetic spectrum conducive to long distance transmission, something 20-20,000Hz (nominal human hearing range) is not good for.

I'm suggesting that by looking back at previous technologies and adapting them, there might be a way to create large display tech that avoids the pitfalls of current solutions. To wit, glass panels get too large and heavy above 80", projection that uses passive reflective screens requires very low ambient light and precise, powerful light engines.

Cheers - #19
Click to expand...

Yeah, sounds like what I wanted to do two decades ago, except the remapping, which I might have considered. You get a problem with ambient light. The energy distribution of the light across the screen has to be calibrated adequately.

Again, combined with the dirt of greyish black filtered screen that Sony nand LG Hector used, but more modern and blacker, could he good, but the issue happens that if you have that, do you really need those not black phosphors which could he replaced by mat white.

Still, the 3M rear projection material is probably good.
 
Yes, there are issues with roll up screens, as there are with even normal OLED over area. Don't know how well they are with this now though. However, I expect it will be overcome, and there is a supper easy solution more rigid ones.
 
Michael Moreno said:
Looking to buy a greater than 65' 4K TV monitor

Please let me know all your favorite/reasonable 80' and up Flat screen options are

This article helped me leave the idea of getting a projector behind for a lot of reasons.

Appreciate you saving me the time of hunting down a big screen for my large studio, as scrolling through articles and settings is defeating.

Going to be using it for a second/main computer monitor mostly and a tv/movie night often..

Very much appreciated
Click to expand...

Forgot, there is a new microled system, 0.5mm per pixel maybe, that you can get in 40inch segments and assemble into larger displays. But I don't know the performance accuracy. Led displays I have seen tend to look woeful from led deviations etc, but that is then, what they are like now, I don't know.
 
Blair, your stuff, how about a cheap portable recorder with filming, camera and lens control that you can attach camera heads too?
 
Wayne - you lost me there buddy. Not sure what you're asking exactly.

My phosphor impregnated screen excited by laser is an attempt to play to the strengths of existing technologies, while avoiding some of the more difficult challenges. If phosphors can be selected, or created from raw materials, that would have precise response characteristics I think my concept could work well. The laser output could live well beyond the visible spectrum with a particular laser wavelength causing a particular phosphor wavelength to be generated at the screen. In theory, such a system could display any color precisely, it wouldn't even have to use R/G/B mixing.

It's just a concept, what it would take to manufacture phosphors with such specific response characteristics is unknown. I also don't know what it would take to hold the electrons in a neutral state, excite them precisely and have them return to a null state. My theory is based on the electron gun/cathode ray tube coated with phosphors display system adapted for front projection. The practicality of such an approach is an open question, to say the least. If I was running R&D for a CE company interested in the large display market, I'd certainly assign some folks to investigate what it would take.

Cheers - #19
 
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