4K DI options

[M Most]

Oh yeah ... and stupid committees.

I am selling "F the DCI" T-shirts at NAB.

Mark, I really don't understand your problem with the DCI specification or the committee that created it. Do you know any of the people who serve on that committee, and have you talked to them about it? The specification was specifically written to be very open ended regarding evolving color standards and yet still be applicable to current technology. It was also written to institute security procedures that are there not only because of general Internet based consumer piracy, but also to allow the business to continue as a business, by specifying a time frame for exhibitor distribution of the material and also by specifying what screens it can be shown on. All of these things are necessary for the business to continue to make money and protect and expand the theatrical experience for moviegoers. It's not simple because it can't be. It's not intended for consumers, and it's not intended to be a substitute for projecting DVCProHD files from a Mac Mini. It's intended to make the digital cinema system more uniform and reliable by laying down specific requirements for proper exhibition. And if it takes a bit of effort on the part of post production service suppliers to achieve that, I personally have no problem with that. Not everything is intended to be consumer desktop software, you know. Nor should it be. If one wants to take an HDCam tape and stick it in a JH3 connected to a digital cinema projector, nobody is stopping you, provided you can find a theater that will allow you to do that. And if you want to play back files from a computer into the same projector, well, nobody is preventing you from doing that either. But if you want a reliable, repeatable presentation with some standards for color, brightness, sound, and distribution format, that adapts easily to things like subtitled presentations without modification and from the same distribution element, and that will look virtually the same in a theater as in your original DI suite, a DCP is a much better bet. Just don't expect to do that on consumer software.

 

[Rudi Herbert]

A lot of this discussion, informative, inspired, indicative of future trends and fun as it is to read, is ultimately academic. Do we REALLY need realtime 4K monitoring, editing, grading and other for exhibition that, for the foreseable future (meaning the next 3-4 years at the very least) will remain 2K 99% of the time? Of course not. Have you ever seen a film projected on a well set, DCI compliant theather on a good 2K projector? It looks fantastic. I certainly don't need anymore than that, much less will the "uneducated" audiences. It is taking tremendous time and effort to move theathers worldwide into a digital projection format, do you think they'll do it any less begrudgingly if instead of the relatively easy and cheap 2K system we tell them to incur 4 times the headache and expense for a 4K projection system? I don't think so.

I f we can truly work in realtime at 2K, with several layers, transitions, whatnot, then that is indeed the sweet spot. Check things here and there at 4K, but 2K is where the real world work will be done for a while still.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

And if it takes a bit of effort on the part of post production service suppliers to achieve that, I personally have no problem with that.

Neither do I.

I'll argue DCI with you over drinks at NAB on me.

 

[M Most]

Neither do I.

I'll argue DCI with you over drinks at NAB on me.

If we're talking politics of DCI - and that would mean the true nature of who really owns distribution, and who is permitted to participate either as a service supplier or a customer as a result of that ownership - then it probably won't be much of an argument, because we'll likely be in total agreement. If, however, we're talking tech, I'll be looking forward to your thoughts on that. Prior to those drinks, though, you might want to read up on the AMPAS IIF proposal, which should be made publicly available soon and incorporates some good ideas for post production standardization (lots of things from ILM's work on OpenEXR, and some interesting ideas about scene referred color, use of ILM's Color Transformation Language, and reference transforms), and DC28, which is the SMPTE committee that is attempting to finalize a standard based largely on the work of DCI, but incorporating other things as well.

Hope I'm not getting too geeky here...

If you're planning on being in Vegas over the weekend, or more specifically attending the Digital Cinema Summit, that would be a good time and place to meet..

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

Hey Hans -

I am impressed!

Can you tell me how fast 1080p ProRes with ONE primary grade and TWO secondaries?

Uncompressed 1080p with ONE primary grade and TWO secondaries?

Thanks on advance!

Hi Mark (you made me curious..)

I got the 5600fx for SpeedGrade which is my favourit CC app. SpeedGrade works like a charm (tons of grading layers RT) with this card but als does Color. 1080p ProResHQ (did not want to turn on my Raid for UC) is RT with 1 Primary, 2 Secondaries (Key) and 1 more Secondary with a mask that was even blurred.

I did not go any further because of lacking time (the kids) but it seems like that Color benefits very much from this card and the drivers are not bad at all. Highly recommended!

I have to add that the 5600fx does not have a HDSDI out, for some a dealbreaker for others like me a feature which is no so important (there are work arounds). Anway, the only solution for serious DI work on the MAC.

Hans

Edit: Footage played back at 30 fps.

 

[David Birdy]

Exactly. FIRST you want killer RED 4K to current 2K infrastructure.

But for the record ... personal ego and perception run this industry.

Oh yeah ... and stupid committees.

I am selling "F the DCI" T-shirts at NAB.

Quote of the week!!! O how true it is Mark... I will add the people controlling the money really don't know media work-flows....

Dave

 

[Lucas Wilson]

I have to add that the 5600fx does not have a HDSDI out, for some a dealbreaker for others like me a feature which is no so important (there are work arounds). Anway, the only solution for serious DI work on the MAC.

A small clarification... There is an SDI card for the 5600, but it is only supported on Windows.

Cheers,

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

 

[Hans von Sonntag]

A small clarification... There is an SDI card for the 5600, but it is only supported on Windows.

Cheers,

Lucas
------
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA

You are right, of course. Appel is sleeping again.
Just to add: The 5600 with SDI option is not cheap... but great to have.

Hans

 

[cinepost35]

Does anyone know if you can Color in 2k in realtime on any system and then apply that CC to 4k DPX files headed to the lab for output?

 

[Sanjin Jukic]

Go back to the main topic 4K realtime colo(u)r grading

is possible today only with Baselight8,


Quantel's Pablo

and maybe Chrome Imaging's

MATRIX 4K that something about that should be confirmed at NAB 2008.

All other systems are 2K like Speedgrade, Scratch, Color, etc...

More about Baselight EIGHT:

"Baselight EIGHT:
maximum bandwidth, ultimate efficiency
Featuring 48TB local storage capacity,
Baselight EIGHT provides the performance
and allows you to play and grade multiple
4K streams in real-time. Doubling the power
of Baselight FOUR, the Baselight EIGHT enables
real-time grading of 4K scans or multiple
real-time 2K streams and is ideal for a high-end
grading suite for commercials or film grading.
Baselight EIGHT includes Blackboard."

Baselight Blackboard Viewer>>

LINK>>>

 

[cinepost35]

I have to ask...

Why? What exactly are you delivering and to whom that this is important? If we're talking about actual distribution, it should be noted that at least 85% of high end DI work is done in 2K, and to date there have been very, very few digital cinema packages done in anything but 2K. So even in the highest end theatrical distribution chains, there is little demand or even opportunity for 4K finishing or delivery elements. Other than personal ego or a lack of understanding of distribution realities, what are your reasons for feeling that this is needed?

4K ( in 2D and 3D ) is the future of Digital Cinema and plenty of folks are creating projects in 4K and/or involved in projects in production now. All these will be delivering in 4K and 2K when they are completed.


The sooner Red makes additional 4K tools available the better. I agree a great deal of folks who are buying Reds seem to be finishing in 2k or less which is fine but I wouldn't discount the need for 4K any day.


BTW....AMC just signed a deal with IMAX for 100 new theaters for DMR films all will look for 4K .

 

[laguun]

A Clipster at its *base* configuration is not much more expensive than SCRATCH. But it is still more expensive.

clipster is in the same ballpark as your prices. It is usually offered at ~50-60K.

But if you want the realtime 4K configuration - that is *much* more expensive.

No.
The difference is in the lower $$.$$$.

Don't misunderstand me. I think Clipster is a great box, and I have a lot of respect for the LA team -

Clipster surely is a real powerhouse and performancewise a class above the pc with sdi graphics card system as iridas speedgrade, assimilate scratch or apple color. i however prefer speedgrades or scratchs interface over the dvs ui. The clipsters spycer networking in the background however is also outstanding (and free). For an ideal uncompressed red 4k workflow clipster is certainly one of the top choices out there.

but I think you are overstating their capabilities and I know you are understating their price.

I think you know quite well that clipster perform 4K in realtime, and regarding the prices, dvs does allow price quotes. My last quote was in september 2007, and it was in the same pricerange as scratch. I will inquire monday if that changed.

A Baselight8 is the only Filmlight product capable of realtime4K. They start at over US$500K.

baselight starts at ~130.000. The baselight8 system costs quite a bit less than 500.000 (at least here in europe), but it is correct that the bl8 it is their 4K realtime-capable system.

But 3840 x 2400 is not 4K, and these monitors have horribly slow refresh at maximum resolution. They were primarily intended for medical applications where refresh isn't a critical gating factor. If you're not going to be displaying true 4K, wouldn't you be just as well off with a decent 23"?

I stated that the monitors are slow, however they arent "terribly" slow. Different from 2K/1080p monitors, they are sharp enough to spot 4K noise and sharpness issues which one will miss in 2K, when 75% of the pixels arent displayed.

Also, their contrast is mediocre and they arent recommendable for precise color timing. As inexpensive 4K monitoring alternative to a SRX these monitors are however quite something.

 

[M Most]

4K ( in 2D and 3D ) is the future of Digital Cinema and plenty of folks are creating projects in 4K and/or involved in projects in production now. All these will be delivering in 4K and 2K when they are completed.

Uhh, OK. If you say so. I wish them all good luck with that.

BTW....AMC just signed a deal with IMAX for 100 new theaters for DMR films all will look for 4K .

Installing a projector is one thing, and, frankly, the easy part. Creating deliverable 4K content at the same budget as 2K (which is pretty much required in today's industry economic environment), and then creating and delivering 4K DCP's for anything but the largest studio projects is very unlikely in the foreseeable future, at least for the next few years. Not to mention that of all the projectors I've seen, the Sony 4K projector - the only currently shipping product - is probably my least favorite digital cinema projector. Pure resolution means little if the blacks are not right and the colors are not accurate. But each to their own.

Your opinion seems to be one of conjecture. Mine is one of reality. However, everyone is entitled to accept or reject either.

 

[cinepost35]

Uhh, OK. If you say so. I wish them all good luck with that.



Installing a projector is one thing, and, frankly, the easy part. Creating deliverable 4K content at the same budget as 2K (which is pretty much required in today's industry economic environment), and then creating and delivering 4K DCP's for anything but the largest studio projects is very unlikely in the foreseeable future, at least for the next few years. Not to mention that of all the projectors I've seen, the Sony 4K projector - the only currently shipping product - is probably my least favorite digital cinema projector. Pure resolution means little if the blacks are not right and the colors are not accurate. But each to their own.

Your opinion seems to be one of conjecture. Mine is one of reality. However, everyone is entitled to accept or reject either.

4k will be commonplace faster than you think.

 

[Mark L. Pederson]

4k will be commonplace faster than you think.

I agree with that statement. That's one place mmost and I differ on opinions -

but you should note that IMHO mmost is one of the more knowledgeable post production folks who post on REDUSER. He has significant real world experience and he knows his tech.

 

[M Most]

4k will be commonplace faster than you think.

We'll see. Digital projection was supposed to be on about 9000 domestic US screens by now. It's currently on less than 1/3 of that, and movement to digital distribution and projection is much slower than that outside the US. There is no measurable consumer demand for digital projection, let alone 4K. If anything, there is far more interest and at least empirically demonstrated demand for digital 3D projection than there is for 4K. The general moviegoing public is at least aware of what 3D is and brings to certain presentations, while they know little to nothing about 4K, either as a practical reality or even a buzzword. The main impetus behind digital projection is an economic one in terms of distribution costs, and even that has not been enough. The only workable model for financing digital projection has come from a virtual print fee system, which basically means that for the next few years, the studios are subsidizing their anticipated future cost reductions by paying for the digital equipment and installations through a diversion of the money they would normally spend on prints for those theaters that choose to participate, so even the economic benefits to the studios are some ways away.

Those here and elsewhere who believe that technology in and of itself - at least in the entertainment film business - is desirable and inevitable are forming those opinions in part based on their own personal wish list. Practical and economic reality says otherwise.

 

[Martin Tlaskal]

A Baselight8 is the only Filmlight product capable of realtime4K. They start at over US$500K.

I work for FilmLight - I'd just like to take a moment to refute this comment.
A Baselight4 is capable of realtime playback and grading of full-gate (4x3 aspect) 4k.

We at FilmLight wouldn't normally post on the message boards of another company, I just wanted to set the record straight.

In my experience, it's often wise when gathering product information to
contact manufacturers directly (rather than on relying posts from
competitors in public forums).

 

[Adam Glick]

Clipster surely is a real powerhouse and performancewise a class above the pc with sdi graphics card system as iridas speedgrade, assimilate scratch or apple color. i however prefer speedgrades or scratchs interface over the dvs ui. The clipsters spycer networking in the background however is also outstanding (and free). For an ideal uncompressed red 4k workflow clipster is certainly one of the top choices out there.

The Clipster is a fine turn-key platform for 2K & 4K finishing but there is no denying that beyond its (err quirky?) software toolset, network rendering and some fairly robust I/O (4K realtime playout, for what it's worth), it is a standard PC in every way.

With the RED pipeline in mind, and certainly for 2K finishing, I can't see any benefit to Clipster over the other options available.

(edited for spellinfhg)

 

[laguun]

The Clipster is a fine turn-key platform for 2K & 4K finishing but there is no denying that beyond its (err quirky?) software toolset, network rendering and some fairly robust I/O (4K realtime playout, for what it's worth), it is a standard PC in every way.

DVS is and was manufacturing dedicated film/video hardware for standalone, Silicon Graphics, Intel X86 and many other platforms since over 20 years.

No matter what the host system is, the real power of these solutions, which exceed the limits of current personal computer technology, are in the DVS designed hardwares, boxxster could also OEM some of these, as the Centauror Hydra Boards etc.

I would recommend to contact DVS to understand their products.

With the RED pipeline in mind, and certainly for 2K finishing, I can't see any benefit to Clipster over the other options available.
(edited for spellinfhg)

The main benefit would be that you work and edit in 4K realtime with 4K display and 4K display for a 4K camera, not with 75% less reolution. 2K is 75% less resolution.

The red is 4K, and X86 computers deliver full 4K i/o with dedicated image hardware (as Dvs), clusters (as Filmlight) or a mix of both (as Quantel), but standard desktop/workstation pc as skulltrail etc are so far simply not powerful enough or a missing hardware for 4K i/o.

Thats why this thread is called "4K DI options".

If your opinion is that the houndreds of baselight/clipster/iQ customers made a poor choice and should instead buy a regular PC with a Nvidia graphics card and work in 2K instead of 4K thats perfectly ok.

 

[Lucas Wilson]

I work for FilmLight - I'd just like to take a moment to refute this comment.
A Baselight4 is capable of realtime playback and grading of full-gate (4x3 aspect) 4k.

We at FilmLight wouldn't normally post on the message boards of another company, I just wanted to set the record straight.

In my experience, it's often wise when gathering product information to
contact manufacturers directly (rather than on relying posts from
competitors in public forums).

Martin,

My source for this was a current Baselight4 customer. You're right - I should have contacted Filmlight directly.

Apologies, and thank you for jumping in.

Best,

Lucas
-----
ASSIMILATE, Inc.
LA, CA, USA