4K BATTLE: Red , Phantom65 , Genesis and Dalsa

[Finner]

Genesis totally belongs in this grouping. It may not be 4k but I have shot with it and it is the best combination of high digital quality and shooting friendly ease of use camera available right now. It is the digital camera setting the standard right now. I sure hope RED changes all that though.

 

[Stephen Webb]

Nah, I've shot with the D20 and it kicks the hell out of the Genesis!

 

[baro]

By increasing the size of the lens, the glass that the light has to travel through is thicker on the bigger lens.

All things being equal the smaller lens with less will be better quality, or am I missing something?

If the two lenses are identical (only their size is different) they will resolve distant objects with the same sharpness. Of course in one case the created image will be two times as big as in the other case, but they will look identical. That is because if you draw on a paper the pathes the light rays go in the lenses, you will have two identical drawings, only one will be bigger than the other.

 

[Stephen Williams]

If the two lenses are identical (only their size is different) they will resolve distant objects with the same sharpness. Of course in one case the created image will be two times as big as in the other case, but they will look identical. That is because if you draw on a paper the pathes the light rays go in the lenses, you will have two identical drawings, only one will be bigger than the other.

Hi,

That assumes the glass is perfect, and no light is lost in transmission.

Stephen

 

[nikolaiat]

About Kinor's it just might be a bit of pride Russian pride here. But actually having used the camera on some fx work it ain't that bad. First of all for that price you can put it under a burning car without worring too much and after some grading and playin with the gamma it looks fine. And it's been around for a year or two now. Having said that am still waiting for the RED.

 

[RobRoySyd]

There's a good read in the January 07 issue of the ACS mag with David Stump talking about the Dalsa camera, you could probably substitute the RED for a lot of what he's saying. The issue now (or shortly) will not be so much the camera but rather the workflow, there's no industry standard for recording or handling 4K in post.

 

[Graeme Nattress]

That's why we're as completely focussed on workflow as we are the camera. That's why we have REDCODE RAW and it's super quality / datarate point which allows you to work with 12bit RAW data without a refrigerator sized hard drive tethered to your camera. That's why we're building REDCINE.

Graeme

 

[Blair S. Paulsen]

System bottlenecks

System bottlenecks

The cost of film and the increasing quality of television cameras has made the switch to digital acquisition inevitable. It could be argued that the entrenched cultures in the industry have been the biggest brakes on the transition but there have been critical technical issues as well. I salute the approach the Red Leader and the Red Team have chosen both technically and in addressing the human factors.

It still floors me that Sony, Panavision and a host of other very successful companies were so unwilling to use a larger sensor. Going from a 2/3" to S35 sized imaging plane removes several key limitations. Going to a modern wavelet based codec that can acquire 4k@12bit at only 28MB/sec moved the day of reckoning for film up several years. Creating their own software solution in RedCine should allow relatively rapid adoption as it removes many of the barriers other solutions, even from the biggest vendors, have struggled with.

I tip my hat...

 

[Illya Friedman]

Of the SHIPPING cameras, Dalsa has the most impressive dynamic range that I've seen. They still have significant challenges in terms of package size, recording methodology (Codex is great but BIG), and their "4K or the highway" approach. Add in the fact many of their top end technical folks have left, and that does present them with quite a challenge. A shame, because the core imaging technology is fantastic - which may have been their downfall, when it seemed they set out to make a no-compromises imaging platform. The problem is, some compromises are necessary with current technology -
-mike

Thanks for the kind words Mike. It's true the Origin produces more dynamic range then any other digital cinema camera. It's also true that the camera has a larger profile than many motion picture cameras. Thankfully, the profile hasn't been an issue for any of the number skillful cinematographers, including several ASC members, who've shot with it.

The Codex is an AMAZING invention that gets better and better every month. Currently, it's the smallest rugged 4K field recorder in the world, by itself it's around the size of a larger Pelican case. The Codex has the ability to run a thin and super strong Infiniband cable for kilometers, without need of repeating. The unit can be powered for hours with a battery belt. The size of the Codex hasn't been a problem for anyone so far, and just like RED, the profile and specs will certainly change over time, I know it has already. I'm sure other new recording products are rapidly on their way to market. Including some of the promising products discussed in this very forum.

Regarding compromise- there are some things that are just not worth compromising. Many of my clients don't want to compromise their images- be it a shot during production, final color grade, or the camera and optics they use. For many DPs, an electronic viewfinder is a compromise. It may not be for some, but for many it is. Arri has also made a point to continue with their excellent optical viewfinders in their D-20 HD camera. Like our Origin, I know Arri made a lot of users very happy when they chose to include that one feature.

We at Dalsa are really glad that RED has jumped into the 4K pool with us, and that Sony has announced plans to do so in the near future. In the early days of the Origin there were a lot of slings and arrows from competitors- we still get some today, which is not all that dissimilar to the type RED has also experienced. The work RED is doing is good for everyone, especially the end user. Without yet shipping a camera, RED is pushing the envelope and innovation across the industry. That by itself is impressive, and I’m personally really looking forward to seeing the camera and the complete workflow for myself.

Mike, with all due respect, you posted some inaccuracies that I’m going to take a few moments to clear up. I appreciate your editorial of "4K or the highway", but that's just not correct. The Origin offers 4K resolution and a multitude of workflow and finishing formats, one of which is 4K. Origin proxy footage can be cut ON-SET in either Standard or High Definition. All that is required is a basic laptop with editing software, including Final Cut Pro.

Also, it's well known in some circles that there have been many changes recently at Dalsa, including employees. You are not privy to what happens internally at Dalsa. You do not know our employee structure, who exactly has been hired, resigned, or terminated. If you believe we have lost our "TOP technical talent" and this presents some kind of "challenge" to overcome, I suggest you call one of our most recent hires, President Rob Hummel.

These are a couple good examples of some of the misconceptions about the Origin and Dalsa Digital Cinema floating around in online forums. In the past few months I've been so busy I hardly ever get the chance to post anymore (DVXuser, CML or elsewhere), so I haven't had the chance to chime in every time I see something erroneous. However, I've got some time tonight, so I'll do my best to clear a few things up about what Dalsa Digital Cinema does.

In addition to manufacturing and being the exclusive provider of the Origin 4K camera, Dalsa Digital Cinema is a rental house offering a massive range of products to the motion picture and television industry, with a fiercely loyal client base.

Speaking from my experience, many rental houses specialize in one corner of the industry, and their rental inventory and service reflects ONLY what is needed/used by that market. For example, Company A primarily rents equipment to indie filmmakers. They can provide some equipment to production companies and television (and do); however they specialize in providing support to indies, which accounts for more than 80% of their current business. Company B by contrast specializes in providing equipment to network "Reality TV”. Company B provides equipment to other types of productions, including independent filmmakers, but more than 80% is “Reality.” Neither of those companies can provide equipment or service very well outside of their comfort area. Indies often need a LOT of attention in prep and have a lot of questions, it’s incredibly difficult for Company B to offer that on-the-floor education and training to their clients during prep, particularly for the clients that need extra help. "Reality" shooters seldom require "camera 101" help during prep, but need a lot more attention in the middle of the night, and tons of back-up equipment and service. That level of 24-hour support is pretty much impossible for small operations, like Company A.

I know first hand because I've worked for both company A and B over the years. I’ve also sampled nearly every LA and San Francisco rental house while working as a cameraman (primarily in film) for over a decade.

In contrast to other houses, Dalsa offers a massive inventory of high-end products that can be used for multiple applications and only hires current or former working professionals for the entire rental staff. That means, chances are the person on the phone or the person who'll hand you a camera and BNC cable, can also operate that camera, build you that cable, explain to you the acronym of BNC, and knows the going rate for a box of T-stops.

Dalsa also takes rental service seriously, with more professional redundancy than I've ever seen. Dalsa of course offers 24-hour on-call service, and that service has a back-up service, which also has a back-up behind them- and everyone is knowledgeable. The level of service is staggering- far beyond the service of many higher profile companies I’ve had the displeasure of working with. Another time I’ll tell tales of being stranded with downed cameras while shooting on location, at night, in a far off land.

While the brain trust at Dalsa is substantial, it's impossible for anyone to know everything. Dalsa regularly brings in expert professionals in their respective fields to consult on projects. If I'm not mistaken that's how we came to develop out Dalsa Camera Slider and Pivoting Hi-Hat. Just two examples of items that are NOT available anywhere else.

Dalsa is unique because it provides such a large amount of equipment to such a wide range of productions and budgets. Dalsa primarily provide equipment and support to Features, TV Series, Commercials, Music Videos and Pilots. However, there is also a first-class staff/freelance production team that regularly provides support (partial or complete) and production services (crew, stages, insurance, catering...etc) all the way to completely "producing" a broad range of content for networks, production companies, and studios. Our name doesn't go on the job, but there's a good chance you've seen Dalsa supported professional content.

In addition to the Origin, Dalsa rents cameras ranging from inexpensive SD/HD cameras (like DVX100, V1U, HVX200, XLH1, SDX/HDX900) to more moderate priced cameras like the Varicam and F900, all the way up to the most elegant and powerful Viper Film Stream solution in the world- offering on set color management and recording to either disk or tape. As a side note many people don't know that Dalsa manufactures sensors for many of the finest imaging systems in the world, including the CCDs in the Viper. Like the Origin, the Viper's sensors employ Frame Transfer technology, in the realm of 1920x1080 cameras, the dynamic range is astounding. Frame Transfer sensors combined with a mechanical shutter can create motion blur that looks EXACTLY the same as film motion blur. Other common sensor/camera technology can have an extremely hard time creating film frame motion blur.

Dalsa's Los Angeles facility includes:

- 33-seat screening room complete with Christie CP2000 2K projector and THX certified sound system.

- Permanent green screen stage

- Private prep rooms

- Color Correction/off-line suite

- On site lens and electronics servicing down to a board level.

Dalsa's inventory includes:

- Huge assortment of optics/filters/35mm PL mount lenses: Arri/Zeiss Master Primes, Ultra Primes, Super Speeds, Cooke S4, Angenieux Optimo etc., P+S Technik Pro35mm adapters, Zeiss Digiprimes, Fuji E-Series Cine lenses and Cmotion lens control systems for every one.

- Jibs with remote pan/tilt heads- Dalsa is the exclusive provider of the 30'+ Gatorcam system

- Lighting: including EFP LED, Tungsten and HMI packages

- Cine/ENG Audio, including microphones, tape and hard drive based audio recording.

- Custom equipment racks, fiber systems and wireless video transmitters and receivers

Hope this helps,

I.

Dalsa Digital Cinema