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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

4K BATTLE: Red , Phantom65 , Genesis and Dalsa

Haha, oh my god. I'm just recovering from some rolling on the floor.

Even people without any knowledge of a blue channel or interpolated pixels can spot artifacts from a mile away.
I was looking at the guy's face on the downloadable pic of that KINOR camera, as my wife walked by, saying: 'What's that? What disease does he have?'
 
regarding the Phantom, what's the advantage of shooting on medium format?
 
With a larger imaging area you can create sharper lenses (with the same DOF).

Maybe it is not that important with todays resolutions, but as pixel numbers will get higher the lens will be a limiting factor more and more. Especially with wide angle lenses.
 
Also bigger pixels are better usually. Just like the picture quality difference between DSLRs and compact cameras.
 
I thought the Genesis only records 1080p, not 4K?
 
Justin Anderson said:
regarding the Phantom, what's the advantage of shooting on medium format?
Click to expand...

The Phantom 65's pixel pitch is 12.5 microns (RED's is 5.4 microns, if I recall correctly). As a consequence of the extra photosite real estate, I have been told that the Phantom has a high ISO rating -- and it needs all the sensitivity it can get for high speed work (for which it is designed). The full size of the Phantom 65 sensor yields an aspect ratio of 2.2:1 (same as 65mm 5-perf film, hence the reason for the "65" in its name). So it's a "widescreen" or scope-equivalent camera that uses spherical lenses and requires very little cropping of the sensor. As for depth of field, Stephen is quite right. Less depth of field compared to the S35 format, but if the sensor has a higher ISO, shallower depth of field doesn't have to be problematic. Having said that, the shallow DOF characteristics of the 70mm epics of the past are quite beautiful -- just harder to get nose to ears in focus in a closeup.
 
RED is not the only company pushing the envelop around the digital cinema table. We have great respect for the efforts of any company that truly wants to make a difference in the industry. I expect that all of us will improve our game as time goes on...

Jim
 
baro said:
With a larger imaging area you can create sharper lenses (with the same DOF).
Click to expand...

Hi,

Normally in my experiance lenses designed for larger formats do not resolve more. It's lenses designed for smaller formats that have that requirement.

I don't understand what you are saying about DOF.

Stephen
 
penfever said:
I had also heard that Genesis was 1080.
Click to expand...

The Genesis outputs 1080, yes. But is does have a Super35mm-sized sensor. So it offers the "possibility" of 2k or 4k in the future if it's outfitted with different hardware and DDR recording instead of the HDCAM-SR deck. As far as this discussion is concerned, it's not appropriate, but if Panavision develops it further, it could be a player.
 
Stephen Williams said:
I don't understand what you are saying about DOF.
Click to expand...

Let's say you create a 50 degrees field of view, f/2 lens for a small format camera. Let's say you increase the size of your lens so that it will cover the same 50 degrees field of view on your large format camera (the proportions of your lens remain the same). The angular resolution of your lens will be the same if you use it full open in both cases (let's suppose diffraction is not the limiting factor here).

Now in the second case DOF will be shallower. As a cinematographer you don't care what sized sensor is in your camera. Your only goal is to have a 50 degrees field of view and a particular DOF in your resulting image on the screen. To achieve the same DOF with you large format camera as that of the small format camera, you cannot use your large format lens full open. Let's say your large format imager is two times bigger than your small format imager. In that case you have to use your large format lens at f/4 to achieve the same DOF as with your small format camera at f/2 (the pictures from the two camera will look the same).

A lens gives you a shaper image usually if you stop it down. And if you design the lens from the ground up to be an f/4 lens, you can make it even sharper (for one you can use thinner lenses). Some large format lenses are f/10 at full open. They are sharp still they can give you quite a shallow DOF.

Now if you use a larger sensor to achieve shallower DOF, the above reasoning doesn't apply. This is why I said in my original post 'with the same DOF'.
 
The striped RGB sensor of the Genesis would not be a good canidate for true 4K. Even though it has almost enough actual photosites it combines each RGB stripe into a sinle pixel line so it is designed to achieve something similar to a three chip camera, Vs. the Bayer pattern of the Red, which, like DSLR is designed to resolve it's actual resolution even if a small amount is lost in interpolation. Graeme, Stuart, is that right?
 
i added the Genesis becouse as they say it is 11mega pixel equivelant to S35
 
Genesis

Genesis

Independent of pixel counts the Genesis has shot some interesting films, which is what really matters. Check out the article in the January issue of American Cinematrographer regarding the shooting of Apocalypto. You rarely see a DoP happier with his gear. Apocalypto made extensive use of natural light and certainly has some very interesting imagery, to say the least. The good news is we have more tools to work with than ever, and RED raises the bar for all of us.
 
baro said:
Let's say you create a 50 degrees field of view, f/2 lens for a small format camera. Let's say you increase the size of your lens so that it will cover the same 50 degrees field of view on your large format camera (the proportions of your lens remain the same). The angular resolution of your lens will be the same if you use it full open in both cases (let's suppose diffraction is not the limiting factor here).
.
Click to expand...

Hi,

By increasing the size of the lens, the glass that the light has to travel through is thicker on the bigger lens.

All things being equal the smaller lens with less will be better quality, or am I missing something?

Stephen
 
Evin, I'd totally agree. The RGB stripe pattern is not suited to the recontruction to a higher resolution. Indeed, the Genesis chip can be thought of as only having 1920x1080 macro pixels, where each of those macro pixels is made up of 6 mini pixels. The arangement of the minipixels is to get a 1920x1080 image, not a higher resolution one. IMHO, of course,

Graeme

Evin Grant said:
The striped RGB sensor of the Genesis would not be a good canidate for true 4K. Even though it has almost enough actual photosites it combines each RGB stripe into a sinle pixel line so it is designed to achieve something similar to a three chip camera, Vs. the Bayer pattern of the Red, which, like DSLR is designed to resolve it's actual resolution even if a small amount is lost in interpolation. Graeme, Stuart, is that right?
Click to expand...
 
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