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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

4K apple display

Hey Mark!

Cool. I hadn't seen it mentioned here, can you tell me where to find more info. This is great news!

Thanks.
 
Quick question:

The Thunderbolt cable carries a 10gb/s Displayport link, plus a 10gb/s DisplayPort link. What's the maximum hz you can go to for 3840x2160 without exceeding 10gb/s?

According to the Wikipedia, you need 16gb/s for 3840x2160x10bits per channel @ 60hz... Even if you took it down to 48hz and 8 bits per channel you'd still be a fraction north of 10gb/s if you used the same vertical blanking.

Under 48fps would probably look a bit weird for doing normal GUI stuff. Fine for showing off 24fps movies but weird for mousing around.

So, will they drop the frame rate - or update Thunderbolt? Or do something else (compress the data, use both 10gb/s streams? Turn the Displayport side into a unidirectional 20gb/s stream)?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
 
4K is good...

Jim
 
That 4K display was in my building and I missed it! Had to fly off to another site for a shoot. ARRGGG. Thunderbolt is pretty awesome though, huh?
 
Bruce Allen said:
Quick question:

The Thunderbolt cable carries a 10gb/s Displayport link, plus a 10gb/s DisplayPort link. What's the maximum hz you can go to for 3840x2160 without exceeding 10gb/s?

According to the Wikipedia, you need 16gb/s for 3840x2160x10bits per channel @ 60hz... Even if you took it down to 48hz and 8 bits per channel you'd still be a fraction north of 10gb/s if you used the same vertical blanking.

Under 48fps would probably look a bit weird for doing normal GUI stuff. Fine for showing off 24fps movies but weird for mousing around.

So, will they drop the frame rate - or update Thunderbolt? Or do something else (compress the data, use both 10gb/s streams? Turn the Displayport side into a unidirectional 20gb/s stream)?

Bruce Allen
www.boacinema.com
Click to expand...

You have a great point. Sounds like they may use 2 cables to do it, but a single cable supports 2 bidirectional 10gb/s streams, so that gets you there theoretically... HDMI now supports Quad HD/4K playback as well at 24Hz, but didn't see a flood of devices released, and I suspect 24-30Hz will be the limiting Hz for now...
 
I think perhaps it was an error on the part of PC World. 4K monitors are not ready for mass adoption yet because:
1. The cost of 4k panels is way too high at this time.
2. Apple is no longer interested in producing something that they will sell at a high cost and only sell a couple thousand units - case in point - THE XSERVE.
3. No video card currently supports resolutions above 2560 x 1600 at this time, even ultra high end cards. Would at least require a card firmware update - if it is not a current hardware limitation. Card would also have to support Displayport 1.2, or HDMI 1.4.
4. The current Thunderbolt spec would not be sufficient over a single link.
 
Snips from Wiki below:

DisplayPort version 1.2 was approved on December 22, 2009. Most significant improvement of the new version is the doubling of the effective bandwidth up to 17.28 Gbit/s, which allows for increased resolutions, higher refresh rates, and greater color depth. Other improvements include multiple independent video streams (daisy-chain connection with multiple monitors), support for stereoscopic 3D, increased AUX channel bandwidth (from 1 Mbit/s to 720 Mbit/s), support for more color spaces including xvYCC, scRGB and Adobe RGB 1998, and Global Time Code (GTC) for sub 1 µs audio/video synchronisation, and addition of Apple Inc.'s Mini DisplayPort connector, which is much smaller and more appropriate for laptop computers and other small devices.

†Sample data rates required by various display resolutions using common vertical blanking methods, Gbit/s Resolution × color depth @ frame rate

3840 × 2160 × 30 bpp @ 60 Hz 16.00 CVT-R (CVT: Coordinated Video Timings)
__________________

Assuming I am reading this right, we should be able to do QuadHD at up to 60P over DisplayPort 1.2 and probably even DCI spec 4096 by 2160 as there is a little headroom between 16.00 and 17.28 Gbit/s. In terms of 3D at 4K it would appear that you could do up to 30fps x 2 (R & L) and then repeat frames as needed to avoid flicker.

Having commonly available interconnects for 4K would be great. At Cinegear in June of 2010 we did 4K dailies using the RedRocket with the Break out Box running 8 physically independent lanes of single link SDI (yes, I bought 8 matched BNC cables) to the Sony L-560 LCD monitor Band Pro loaned us. Awesome, but hardly elegant and the Sony with all the input boards was over $60K.

Cheers - #19
 
Blair S. Paulsen said:
DisplayPort version 1.2 was approved on December 22, 2009. Most significant improvement of the new version is the doubling of the effective bandwidth up to 17.28 Gbit/s, which allows for increased resolutions, higher refresh rates, and greater color depth. Other improvements include multiple independent video streams (daisy-chain connection with multiple monitors), support for stereoscopic 3D, increased AUX channel bandwidth (from 1 Mbit/s to 720 Mbit/s), support for more color spaces including xvYCC, scRGB and Adobe RGB 1998, and Global Time Code (GTC) for sub 1 µs audio/video synchronisation, and addition of Apple Inc.'s Mini DisplayPort connector, which is much smaller and more appropriate for laptop computers and other small devices.

†Sample data rates required by various display resolutions using common vertical blanking methods, Gbit/s Resolution × color depth @ frame rate

3840 × 2160 × 30 bpp @ 60 Hz 16.00 CVT-R (CVT: Coordinated Video Timings)
Click to expand...

Yeah, I heard that DisplayPort could handle much higher resolutions now. What I don't get is whether Thunderbolt can do the two 10Gbps channels, plus a DisplayPort channel, or if the DisplayPort reduces the speed of the data channels...
 
actually it might be ...

actually it might be ...

higher when you include displayport (I believe it alone can be as high as 17.28 Gbit/s one direction) with 10Gbs data/etc you get some high datarates one way (when running a fullymaxed display port signal and data signal) and the same back.

I've seen people quote a variety of numbers like 40GB aggregate etc.; but if this is full implementation of version 1.2 of the Displayport spec then 17.28Gbit/s seems like it would be higher then 40Gbits total (quite confusing).

6th paragraph down:

http://www.tested.com/news/everything-you-need-to-know-about-intels-thunderbolt-light-peak/1894/

Intel's site (they don't say outright):
http://www.intel.com/technology/io/thunderbolt/index.htm

Displayport.orgs site:
http://www.displayport.org/cms/sites/default/files/ICCE Presentation on VESA DisplayPort.pdf

DisplayPort Physical Layer Overview
Main Link Bit Rate Selections
Main Link
Configuration
Raw Bit Rate (incl.
coding overhead)
Application Bandwidth
Throughput
1 lane 1.62, 2.7, 5.4* Gbps 1.296, 2.16, 4.32* Gbps
2 lanes 3.24, 5.4, 10.8* Gbps 2.592, 4.32, 8.64* Gbps
4 lanes 6.48, 10.8, 21.6*Gbps 5.184, 8.64, 17.28* Gbps

I think this is a pretty awesome little connector with a lot of room to grow.
 
I would like a 4k 3d display! These days we are loosing resolution to display 3d on monitors.

It it gets worked out correctly we can get full 1920x1080 3d on a 4k display.

My 2cents.

Prost,
Rich
 
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