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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

4k > 2k

Not again....it will not happen...declared at least 6 times...
and if they do...then you could be happy. i dont see the benefit of 2k scaled...
do it in post...much more flexibility.
and storage is no argument, with the drive you will get a lot of redcode footage.
 
pablano said:
I guess I don't understand the aversion to 2K windowed mode. Isn't it comparable to super 16 and isn't the size of the window comparable to the size of S16 film? To me it just makes sense to do it this way. Downsampling would just be extra processing I don't want in camera.
Click to expand...

Super16 isn't 35, thats why!
 
K.Berlin said:
Not again....it will not happen...declared at least 6 times...
and if they do...then you could be happy. i dont see the benefit of 2k scaled...
do it in post...much more flexibility.
and storage is no argument, with the drive you will get a lot of redcode footage.
Click to expand...

I don't see how less flexibility could be "much more flexibility". Give us the option - those who want to use it can use it, you don't have to use it if you don't like it. "storage is no argument" is pure bull - with 4,5 minutes film on a 8GB CF it is certainly an argument.
 
JNAD said:
I don't see how less flexibility could be "much more flexibility". Give us the option - those who want to use it can use it, you don't have to use it if you don't like it. "storage is no argument" is pure bull - with 4,5 minutes film on a 8GB CF it is certainly an argument.
Click to expand...

hey jnad,1st this topic was discussed to death...

i try to explain why less flexibility is more flexibility.

1. practical on set thoughts.
ok you want 35 DOF, i want to see the one Man show that can pull focus on the fly in a documentary situation...

so i would think----go 3k or 2k...to have sharp pictures.
but obviously you are one of the few...so lets think further.

2.Storage
16 GB Cards are 6 months or so away, or you could choose the RED FLASH DRIVE with 64 GB....yeah i think this would be a solution storage wise.

3.Post
You have the possibility to pan and scan...really useful in doc situations where not everything is under control and a beautiful composition can`t be arranged.

4.with 2k scaled you would force the camera to do a really hard work on the fly...so you would waste ressources in other areas of the camera.
 
i guess if we're voting...I'm of the mindset that 2k scaling is not necessary. I'll be happy to archive everything at 4k and downrez in post as needed. Given that a scaling solution wouldn't give me the fps of 2k windowed -- in fact it may even slow the rate down below 4k if more processing is needed for the scaling calcs, I'm not seeing the benefit. DOF is an argument that i'm not buying - plenty of projects have done well on s16 with appropriate glass. Storage? yes CF might be an issue today but I'm sure 16 GB cards are around the corner but who cares the RED drive is hear today. Unless you plan on shooting in volatile conditions (good luck w/ shallow DOF) RED drive is the way to go.

I would much rather see RED refining snr and opening up the post pipeline for DIY indie shooter.

edit: what kaya said...(i guess i'm a slow typer)
 
I still don't really fully understand, how Red could possibly have overlooked the need for this feature.

Sure hope it's available on Scarlet though, combined with the same super35 field of view.
 
Barry Green said:
Well, no, it's actually about 8x as much as a DV camera.
Click to expand...

And,

stevesherrick said:
DV is about 3.6 megabytes/sec whereas REDCODE RAW is about 27ish Megabytes/sec
Click to expand...

Its not straightforward to compare DV (3.6 MB/s) and Red (27 MB/s), since, DV compression is (hopefully) done on the gamma corrected signal, and hence, is perceptually more uniform than linear light (Red One), and hence, compresses more for a given fixed data rate than linear light. And, we are not talking about DV artifacts that happen for several different reasons.

Compressing a linear light signal many times turns out to be a bad idea for many compression algorithms (say JPEG) which were designed with a subconscious assumptions about a perceptual space being there in the first place.
 
Joofa said:
And,



Its not straightforward to compare DV (3.6 MB/s) and Red (27 MB/s), since, DV compression is (hopefully) done on the gamma corrected signal, and hence, is perceptually more uniform than linear light (Red One), and hence, compresses more for a given fixed data rate than linear light. And, we are not talking about DV artifacts that happen for several different reasons.

Compressing a linear light signal many times turns out to be a bad idea for many compression algorithms (say JPEG) which were designed with a subconscious assumptions about a perceptual space being there in the first place.
Click to expand...
In terms of storage, we were referring to an early post that says that DV and REDCODE RAW gets recorded at just about the same data rate, which is far from true.
 
Jonas,

Ideally, we'd have the option. In camera or post. However, this did just get put to rest recently by Jim. Unless something happens that changes their direction on this, it's no longer an option.

There are a lot of threads that cover this topic. It was a passionate discussion, with people on both sides, with equally valid points, but in the end, the fact is there is no 2K Scaled.
 
K.Berlin said:
i try to explain why less flexibility is more flexibility.
Click to expand...

Please don't!!! And don't try to tell me how I should work the camera, or what workflow which is the best for my shootings. The discussion is quite academic as Jim & crew don't think 4K scaling is a good idea. Still, I think it is, but you can't always get what you want. Maybe it's "not possible", but that isn't the same as "not good". I'm sure it's a lovely camera anyway.
 
Tom...........

DCVProHD is 100mbit/s, that's 100 / 8 = 12.5MB/s, a fraction of what RED is doing. So no, not roughly the same at all. And RED's compression is oh so much more modern wavelet rather than old DCT.

Graeme
 
Ah, the damn internets and their bogus MB/s and mb/s and mbps... :)

Well, still, 12.5MB/s is not incredibly far away from 27MB/s, though that is not to say anything the quality of Redcode!
 
Tom said:
Ah, the damn internets and their bogus MB/s and mb/s and mbps... :)

Well, still, 12.5MB/s is not incredibly far away from 27MB/s, though that is not to say anything the quality of Redcode!
Click to expand...

It should be kept in mind that typical DV/DVCPRO (HD) cameras use a smaller image size than Red One, so even at the same data rate (say 12.5 MB/s), the smaller image size has more latitude to work with. Secondly, one should look at relatively better measures such as that using 12.5 MB/s with that camera I got a PSNR of that much and using Red ONE at 27 MB/s I got a PSNR of that much and then compare numbers like these.
 
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