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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

3rd Party Mounts - Warning

Jarred Land said:
Jim already said it.. but I will say it again, this is pretty simple stuff.

If you are using something that someone else makes breaks the camera, they need to fix it. If you are using something that we make and it breaks your camera, then we will fix it.
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Additionally, if we have information about 3rd party stuff causing problems, we have the responsibility to inform the supplier. If they have shipped product into the field, we have the responsibility to inform our customers.

Jim
 
We should not forget that P+S Technik is Academy awarded with the Technical Achievement Award from the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and one of the best third party cine camera accessories companies in the world.

For example they make PRO35 Image Converter, MINI35 400 Image Converter, Skater Dolly, Silicon Imaging SI-2K camera, Weisscam HS-2 high speed camera, Dalsa Origin's Optical Viewfinder, etc... just to name a few.

They know very well what they are doing.
 
Birger is huge for me. I am happy to see that you are all working together towards a solution.

I am not the type of person that would whack something on a $40.000 piece of kit that ends up voiding the warranty.

Glad to hear that RED and BIRGER are in bed together... hope you can make the relationship work.

Many more RED ones will be sold if this issue is resolved.
 
Jannard said:
The original P+S mount voided the warranty... so I understand that they modified it. We have yet to see one, so it is impossible for us to tell you. We requested one but have not received it.

It is in our best interests for our customers to have as many options as possible. But these options need to work without causing problems that we are expected to fix an no charge. Pretty easy stuff to understand.

Jim
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I believe that's true about the IMS conversion. The original concept changed out the whole front standard (the part that the mounts attach to) but they found out that they did not have to go that route and that is also why the price dropped so much.
 
When I heard about a third-party lens mount causing a short, I immediately thought of the dangling, unconnected i-data/LDS wires in the mount. Is Red doing anything to protect those connections for mount-switchers, or perhaps planning to connect them to some shiny gold pins soon?
 
I see that the main issue will be the /i interface cable as well.
To let anyone to handle it, is always a risk.
Good video and step by step instruction will be some compromise.

Second option for the future, will be the blank base mount instead of original PL mount as an option.
When you know that you will be installing non RED mount, you could order RED with the blank mount that will be just the base with the /i interface pressure connectors on it and the plastic cover.

To install any 3rd party mount on it, you just screw the 3rd party mount on top of the blank mount.

Lets engineers to figure it out.......
 
I was thinking no back focus adjustment for 3rd party mounts.
Birger already have its own way of adjusting the back focus.

Sure, simple mounts like Nikon mount could go on top of BF adjuster, that is why it is no brainer to install it. Canon needs to be closer to the sensor so unless BF adjuster will be shorter (30mm or so) you can't use the BF adjuster, it have to be build in to the 3rd party mount.
 
This is ridiculous. Of course it voids the warranty. There is no company, in this industry or otherwise, that would fix a problem caused by a third party product, for free. To expect otherwise would be naive.

Nick.
 
Suede said:
This is ridiculous. Of course it voids the warranty. There is no company, in this industry or otherwise, that would fix a problem caused by a third party product, for free. To expect otherwise would be naive.

Nick.
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But to void the ENTIRE warranty? That's a bit extreme.

I'm wondering why the camera didn't have a power surge prevention circuit to keep from being damaged by the outside world? Surge protection should be designed into every electrical input and output, both for the RedOne and the Birger mount.
 
Lowkus said:
But to void the ENTIRE warranty? That's a bit extreme.

I'm wondering why the camera didn't have a power surge prevention circuit to keep from being damaged by the outside world? Surge protection should be designed into every electrical input and output, both for the RedOne and the Birger mount.
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OK... you are right. We will void the warranty only on everything that goes wrong when you install a 3rd party device. That is certainly more fair.

Jim
 
Lowkus said:
I'm wondering why the camera didn't have a power surge prevention circuit to keep from being damaged by the outside world? Surge protection should be designed into every electrical input and output, both for the RedOne and the Birger mount.
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It's hard to play backseat engineer when we don't know the details. If an inside cable was crushed by the mount and conductors shorted (as the original post suggested) that's an internal short, not external I/O. Protecting hardware against any possible internal short is a tall order... I've worked in electronic design and I've never been given that requirement!
 
It still blows my mind that Jim walks among us in the boards. Jim, when Erik comes on tuesday, take his mount and his order list, license the mount technology and let us send our cameras back for you to install them. Pay Erik a good fee so he can develop more cool things and not worry about manufacturing.
 
Jannard said:
OK... you are right. We will void the warranty only on everything that goes wrong when you install a 3rd party device. That is certainly more fair.

Jim
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So the warranty will be void for anything that goes wrong during the installation of a 3rd party device, then after the device is installed the warranty will cover everything that was not damaged during the installation. Sounds good.:shiftyph34r:
 
jbeale said:
It's hard to play backseat engineer when we don't know the details. If an inside cable was crushed by the mount and conductors shorted (as the original post suggested) that's an internal short, not external I/O. Protecting hardware against any possible internal short is a tall order... I've worked in electronic design and I've never been given that requirement!
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Well, I agree with the backseat engineer comment... I don't know what I'm talking about really, having no practical experience with electronics engineering. On the surface it seemed like a simple implementation, but I'll take your word that it's more difficult than it seems.

As for the crushed cable, it seems that at most the outgoing current would have flowed back in through the input line, so the surge protection circuit still could have protected the internals in that scenario. I guess if the cable was sheered open and pressed against the Red body, then the current could have flowed into the RedOne body and back into any other electronics touching the camera body. But hopefully none of the electronics are touching the body, so the RedOne would just become a large capacitor waiting to send its stored charge into the first person to touch it.

I don't know, it's probably stupid for me to even post here since I have near zero control over the warranty developments at Red. And this whole issue will be figured out really fast between Red and the mount makers, people's warranties will mostly expire naturally of old age, and then we'll all look back and laugh. Well, I might not laugh much because I'll instead be lamenting how I wasted so much time and energy hanging out on this board instead of working on things to help mankind.
 
Having an opinion about something doesn't mean it's worth sharing, especially if it's something you have no practical experience in. It weakens your credibility.
 
birgerEngineer said:
Jarred, Stuart and I are sitting down together in OC on Tuesday to work through the issues. I just bought the ticket. I second Jarred's statement of confidence.
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I'm one of those who have been patiently waiting for the Birger mount, and, frankly speaking, felt yesterday that these explanations had a tone of excuses which quite do not hold properly water. Immediately after this started to think, why I've run into a position that I feel it is wise to control emotions.

I think, the question is, has Red had time to realize the EF-mount, and in general the Canon/Nikon mounts to SLR lenses is a critical part for many existing and future camera owners? And I do not only mean critical in the economical sense, but there are several applications in which PL lenses are out of questions.

I admit that from day one I've understood that it's going to be a bit bumby ride with a completely new camera design, and thus have accepted that have to deal with different kind of limitations. And yes, the amazing improvements, such as build 16 is beyond all the expectations I had or could have dreamed of. So, if I recognize feelings of not being quite happy with the development of the EF-mount, is it a sign of silliness and ungratefulness, that Jim should bypass as noise? On the other hand, if at the time of announcing the agreement between Red and Birger it had also been said that the Birger mount is going to be a 3rd party accessory that may void the warranty, would that have changed the plans of forthcoming camera owners?

While processing on this, I came to this thought of a critical part. For what I'm doing (wildlife documents) I desperately need the EF mount. Long PL-lenses are simply too heavy to carry there in the back end of nowhere. Ok, one may say, go and get the Nikon mount. And yes, that's what I did as soon as realized the developement of the Birger mount is going to be postponed. But still, it's a tamporary solution. Should I now swap all my existing Canon gear to Nikon lenses? If so, how I am going to manage in the winter time, when we travel with the skido with my colleagues and do not have enough space for both Canon and Nikon set of lenses. That implied, I also had to get new winter proofed cases which fit the skido supports. Besides, the Red Nikon mount is a kind of prototype. It's not properly aligned and it's loose.

Summing up, can't avoid thinking that the whole issue of Canon and Nikon adapters has been somewhat overlooked. At least for me, the problem is, there is no real alternative. So may I kindly ask, please take your time, but then come up with a plan you are serious with and which is reliable. For the customer the main point is to know, what will happen and about when. Thereafter we will adapt, whatever is the case. The worst thing is the luke warm attitude "yes there will be an adapter, but there are more urgent things to do right now, ... we haven't seen it, ... warning no warranty, oh wait a moment we will have a meeting, etc."

Finally, almost needless to say, but to make sure the right tone is catched; The camera is wonderful, the new kind of business style is wonderful, all this is far better than anything in the past. Have I ever had a change to communicate with the camera designers before? So, the bumbiness of the ride is not a real problem. To do our own things, we just need to be able to distinct between real plans and wishful plans.
 
I'm just adding my pleading voice to RED supporting this mount. The purchase of my 2nd camera was predicated upon the development of this mount.

One of RED's biggest selling points was the opportunity to use any lens with the camera. And unlike, say, the mattebox program, which was dropped and openly announced as dropped, which made planning quite simple (Hellooo Redrock!), the support for the universal mounting of any lens, seems to have sort of slowly evaporated as a top priority, when it should rank very high on the list, since it is such a large selling point of the camera.

Adding a vote for, please find a way to let us return our cameras to RED for the installation of the mount, pay a fee, and quasi-permanently Canon-ize our cameras. If I run this kind of risk, voiding the warranty through the self-installation process, it eliminates the mount as an option for me. I'm not a technician, I like shooting pretty pictures...make it easy for me, RED!

Thanks...
 
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