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35mm Prime Lens Options

Tonaci Tran

Tonaci Tran

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I'd like to start this thread so that future RED owners will be aware of the possible cine prime lens options for 4k shooting.

Cooke S4
Cooke S2 & S3 (discontinued)
Zeiss Master Primes
Zeiss Ultra Primes
Zeizz Ultra Prime LDS
Zeiss Super Speeds 1.3 (discontinued)
Zeiss Standard Primes 2.1 (discontinued)
Elite Primes

Various Russian Primes

Jim mentioned the possibility of RED 1.9 primes..but it was only a thought. No official commitment yet, though this could be a possible NAB announcement =)

Is this it folks? What others are there?
 
I was thinking of starting this very same thread...

I don't have any others off the top of my head, but I'm really starting to look into various options. As I plan to acquire RED, I will also be needing lenses. I may pick up a cheaper s16 lens or two for starters, but I would prefer to keep all my lens options 4K/35mm capable. I'm not entirely sure what to think of the RED 300MM lens and I'm planning on reserving it along with my camera though.

While I know of the above mentioned pieces of glass, I really have no direct experience with any cine lenses like the Cooke primes or others. My lens experience is primarily limited to 35mm still photography with Nikon and EOS lenses.

It would be interesting to see what others are planning to use and why. I will also be needing a good macro zoom lens and would appreciate any opinions on such a beast that can handle s35mm/4K.
 
IF you are shopping for used lenses, my advice is to start now. In the next several months I predict that the prices of used 35mm lenses will go up due to demand. Reservations are around 1070ish. After NAB, this number will increase drastically, therefore, more users will be in the market looking for lenses. Of course not everyone will want to buy and not everyone can afford a cooke s4/arri master prime set. The more I researched this, the more I realize that an affordable prime lens set is sorely missing in the market..(cough cough) Jim.
 
It will be interesting to see what RED announces at NAB. Right now they're slammed just getting the camera finished and shipping. After they're over that hurdle, it wouldn't surprise me to see them announce a set of high-quality, moderately priced primes. I have no direct knowledge of any such plans by RED, but I'm sure they're well aware of the need and demand for primes.
 
tonaci said:
What others are there?
Click to expand...
Earlier Cooke's like the Speed Panchros, Angenieux (particularly zooms though), Schneider make some glass for 35mm coverage (although they're stronger in the 16mm world)...

You also get re-mounted stills lenses (particularly Nikkor and Canon) for the longer lengths, like 300mm, in common use.

I'm sure Stephen W (and most likely others) can give you a more exhaustive list when he/they stumble across this thread...
 
Dominic Jones said:
Earlier Cooke's like the Speed Panchros, Angenieux (particularly zooms though), Schneider make some glass for 35mm coverage (although they're stronger in the 16mm world)...

You also get re-mounted stills lenses (particularly Nikkor and Canon) for the longer lengths, like 300mm, in common use.

I'm sure Stephen W (and most likely others) can give you a more exhaustive list when he/they stumble across this thread...
Click to expand...

Hi,

The original list is good, if you have loads of money then add Master Primes.

B&L super balitars like S2/S3 Cookes are beautiful lenses, however unless rebuilt at huge expense are no more user friendly than Still lenses IMHO.

Stephen

Edit There are some Canon High Speed lenses, nearly as good as superspeeds but 1/3 price.
 
tonaci said:
I'd like to start this thread so that future RED owners will be aware of the possible prime lens options for 4k shooting.

Cooke S4s
Zeiss Master Ultra Primes
Zeiss Super Speeds 1.3
Elite Primes
Zeiss Standard Primes 2.0

Those are off the top of my head.

Jim mentioned the possibility of RED 1.9 primes..but it was only a thought. No official commitment yet, though this could be a possible NAB announcement =)

What others are there?
Click to expand...

The Arri Zeiss lenses come in 3 current variations:

Master Primes
Ultra Primes
Ultra Prime LDS

There is no MASTER ULTRA Prime. The LDS lenses have the Lens Data connections on the lens itself.

The Super Speeds and Normal Speed Zeiss lenses are not available new only used and are very hard to find. I personally have the Ultra Primes and would highly recommend them, IMHO they look better than the Master Primes or Super Speeds. I have used all of the above lenses on both 35mm Arri cameras and on Video Cameras w/ a Pro35 adapter.

You may want to add to your list the various Russian versions, I have never used these but they could be considered as an economical option.
 
digitalfx said:
I personally have the Ultra Primes and would highly recommend them, IMO the have a far superior look to either the Master Primes or Super Speeds. .
Click to expand...

Hi,

A couple of years ago Geoff Boyle tested lenses, CML members were asked to vote.

The winner was 1st Cooke S4, 2nd Super Speeds, 3rd Ultra Primes.

Stephen
 
Stephen Williams said:
Hi,

A couple of years ago Geoff Boyle tested lenses, CML members were asked to vote.

The winner was 1st Cooke S4, 2nd Super Speeds, 3rd Ultra Primes.

Stephen
Click to expand...

Yes but remember "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder"
I have tried all 3 and my preference is with the Ultra Primes, which is why I invested $65k in a set. But of course, everyone will have their preference. Personally the Super Speeds fall very low on my list, the Cooke s4's were a virtual tie w/ Ultra Primes, but the cost is higher.
 
digitalfx said:
Yes but remember "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder"
Click to expand...

Hi,

That was IMHO the problem with the Ultra Primes. They do have very good focus marks however.

Stephen
 
Lenses along with filmstock ( and I guess now we'll have to start saying sensor ) are the chief elements that determine the look at the camera end. ( At the subject end it's lighting, composition and of course the subject. ) Lenses have distinct personalities. High contrast, high resolution, low distortion, resistance to flare. and even field illumination are admirable qualities in a lens and help to render perfect images, some projects are better shot with imperfect, organic lenses... It's up to you to decide.

Here's my Opinions... I'd love to hear what yours are....

The Panavision lenses are rental only, Zeiss's and Cook's are widely available for rent or purchase.

Master Prime (i've only used these a little) +Excellent in every respect. -large and heavy very expensive to rent or buy.

Cooke S4's +Excellent, minimal breathing, more AC friendly than the Ultra Primes. great beauty lens, cooke s4's seem to make subjects seem more dimensional than zeiss primes. -ugly bokeh at times due to 6 bladed iris.

Panavision Primo +Excellent, much like cooke s4's except round iris. Panavision has some of the worlds best lens techs and the set you get is likely to be very well maintained. -PV mount, rental only.

Ultra Prime +Excellent, a little higher contrast than the s4's, very good for close focus, wide's 10mm, 12, 14, are lower distortion than the s4's highly flare resistant. - can sometimes feel a little harsh.

Zeiss Super Speed +Good, very compact more flare than the modern lenses, it's a 1.3 -lens performs poorly wide open. *Older Mk1's have a triangular iris that looks cool sometimes, check out Taxi Driver to see what I mean.

Elite's Have not used much, many different versions exist, Some are nice. Probably a shaky investment as far as resale value. MKBK's high speed are bargains at around $2,000 a set, but they are in oct-19 mount and conversion to PL is not simple.

Panavision US, SS ,UZ series Some treasures lurk on the Panavision lens shelf. It's worth exploring. Some of these lenses are beautiful and have unusual characteristics. - front elements seemingly of random diameter. Makes it a pain to use matteboxes. -PV mount, rental only

Zeiss Vari-Primes +Excellent preformance, Variable focal lentghs, can look not pretty when you zoom- it's a vari-prime -fricking large and heavy.

Zeiss 2.1 Bleh, I don't like these.

LENS MOUNTS:

I've seen a lot of people post about lens mounts. I think you'll be able to mount pretty much any lens onto the Red. ( with highly varied photographic results of course ) There is no spinning mirror to limit clearance of the back of the lens. It will be a simple task for an experienced metal worker to make a collar that adapts any mount to the red. A good trick to getting the parts is to but a broken body or an extension tube which will yield a pentax, hassy, leica, whatever mount that you can bold onto your red. Bear in mind that some wide angles, especially ones for leica m's might not illuminate the sensor as evenly as you might like, this is due to the CMOS performing less well than film with light that comes in at a high angle of incident. But who knows, it might look cool anyway.

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com
DP, LA IA600
 
Cook vs Zeiss

Cook vs Zeiss

I just wanted to run this by you guys since you all seem quite experienced.
I'm based in Stockholm, Sweden and I'm pretty much just starting my career. I have yet to use the Cook S4s and from Zeiss I've only worked with the Zeiss Super Speeds (mainly HD with the Pro35 adapter) and the Zeiss Variable Primes.
I may be way wrong here so please correct me if I am, that's why I'm writing this. I've gotten the feeling that there might be a US/Europe divide (UK excluded perhaps) with regards to the uses of Cook vs Zeiss, the US being more Cook prone. Am I way off here?
Also, have the Master Primes really taken off yet? They're still quite new to market and I must say that I was supries by digitalfx comment that the Ultra Primes have a "far superior look" to the Master Primes. I certainly don't question it as I don't have the experience.
Very interesting thread!! As most of us realize a 4k sensor is going to need some very serious glass to really deliver all we hope for.
 
Thank you guys for this excellent info.

Not many seem to have experience with the Elites. Can we hear more from those who have tried them? The specs look good, price much lower than Arris and Cooks. How would you describe the character e.t.c.
There is also a lightweight 24-80 zoom - anybody used it?
 
Hi Dappe,

I don't think there are national divides, people tend to gravitate towards and defend what they know and trust. Thinking that a different set of lenses is going to make you into a different kind of DP is like thinking a different guitar would have made Jimmy Hendrix play like Eddie Van Halen. Sure it makes a difference, but its by far the lesser part of the equation.

Matt Uhry
www.fuzby.com
DP LA IA600
 
Hi Matt,

"Zeiss 2.1 Bleh, I don't like these. "

Could you elaborate on this a little more? The Zeiss primes seem to be entry level intro into 35mm prime land. Are they that bad? if so, what didn't you like about them. The super speed 1.3s have been selling like hotcakes thanks to the mini35 adaptors...but I heard that the 2.1 provided a better image and i quote from a rental house guy (who wasn't aware of RED) "If anyone ever made an adaptor like the mini35, but without the extra stops of light lost, the standard 2.1s would become as hot as the super speeds." The used Zeiss 1.3 sets doubled in price since the mini35 came out.
 
I have only used the Master Primes one time, they are wonderful lenses. Great in low light, but very heavy...they are also extremly sharp, too sharp for my taste.

BTW did I saw "far superior"?...I meant I prefer the Ultra Primes, they are not far superior.
I use the Super Speeds very often w/ the Pro35 and recently started using the Ultra Primes since I purchased them and in my opinion they look better than the Super Speeds. In the past I always rented the Super Speeds because of the loss of light w/ the Pro35...but the last few shoots w/ the Ultra Primes, I never really missed the extra stop.

When shooting 35mm I used to only use Primo lenses and Panavision cameras or PanArri's, but since buying the Ultra Primes I have switched to Arri cameras....cant say I dont miss the Primos, but since I bought the Ultra Prime set I have nearly paid for them in less than a year in my rentals only. I refuse to rent the lenses out, I only use them for my shoots. So for me it was a very wise investment.
 
tonaci said:
Hi Matt,

"Zeiss 2.1 Bleh, I don't like these. "

Could you elaborate on this a little more? The Zeiss primes seem to be entry level intro into 35mm prime land. Are they that bad? if so, what didn't you like about them. The super speed 1.3s have been selling like hotcakes thanks to the mini35 adaptors...but I heard that the 2.1 provided a better image and i quote from a rental house guy (who wasn't aware of RED) "If anyone ever made an adaptor like the mini35, but without the extra stops of light lost, the standard 2.1s would become as hot as the super speeds." The used Zeiss 1.3 sets doubled in price since the mini35 came out.
Click to expand...

If you can pick these up cheap, you will be pleased...obviously not in the league w/ the newer lenses, but very nice as entry level lenses. They dont look as good as the Super Speeds, but at half the cost who cares. They also have the benefit of close focus.
 
tonaci said:
The used Zeiss 1.3 sets doubled in price since the mini35 came out.
Click to expand...

And even at double the price you still can't find them for sale.

Will be interesting to see if Zeiss see a market for a set of primes pitched below the Master and Ultra series to cater for the Red market.

The 1000+ pre-orders must be a good indication of a market for them.
 
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