2K scaling...

[albert rudnicki]

In the past months (years?) this is the one thread that comes back all the time.

My Question to Jim is: Can 2K (24-60 fps) scaled can be achieved with the current hardware configuration or not ?
If yes, then the 2K drama should be resolved over time.

Thanks

 

[Elizabeth Lowrey]

If scaled 2K is 7Mb/sec. Then two things happen. Firstly the same 16G card now holds something ridiculous like 40 minutes (which is getting closer to the traditional run-time of tape). Secondly we dont need to wait for CF cards that support 40MB/s; we dont need that datarate anymore so cheaper cards at higher capacity.

I think potentially its huge. Why? well, also the bayer sensor doesnt resolve full 4K. I think Ive heard estimates around 2.5K - 3K. So scaled to some of these formats wouldnt lose much of the image resolution but would save on space. Further to that, processing power in the edit. Redcode Raw at 2.5K would be surely less taxing on your system than at 4K, less rendering time and perhaps more realtime.

There are cases when the red-drive just isnt practical and I think Im not alone in not trusting precious footage to a drive if I dont have too. Flash has proved itself far more reliable.

If it's not possible, then all good. But just wanted to point out the benefits.

I think darkline raises some very interesting arguments in favor of a 2K scaled option. Jim, would you care to respond to these?

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

So, I say GREAT! Do what makes sense and give us more choices not less.

I would rather have high frame rate 4k in camera (with a storage solution that makes sense for this usage) that can be processed to 2k in post, this is 2 new shooting choices. This is a better end result than adding 2k scaled in camera (which sounds like an excessive burden to the in camera processing) alone and only yields (if even possible) a single new shooting option.

Kevin Halverson

Hmmm, I didn't know it was a case of either-or.

Did I miss something?

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

I recently finished shooting a documentary that was filmed in the himalayan region Ladakh. It was shot on P2 cards and than put on to mirrored 500 gig Q drives. This was all done over a period of two and a half years. We shot in some of the most remote places on earth and all said and done with out issue of any sort in regard to short filming time.
You should not have much of a problem, Good luck with your DOC.

As you know, the P2 system has two slots so that you can swap out without stopping recording. Also the DVCProHD coding delivers 1Gb per minute. So with comparable media the P2 system records 4 times as much as RED ... AND it allows you to swap cards for continuous recording.

Filming a doc with 8 minutes per card would not be so easy, and I really cannot understand why anyone would think it would..! ???

 

[Thor Wixom]

4k 60 fps to CF or Red Drive...

Oh yeah, the holy grail that we never thought would be possible.

You mean I won't have to purchase the Red Refrigerator after all?

Darn! I was hoping for a stylish place to store all my brewskies!

Thanks, Jim!

-Thor

 

[Rodrigo Lizana]

I agree. I imagine that Redcine is going to do a much better work (maybe not realtime) scaling 4K to 2K. What was important, at least for me, was to get the full sensor at higher frame rates. If it is 4K, then better, much better !!.

 

[Häakon]

the reason people want it is longer record times.

I had always thought that 2K scaled was a case of people asking for higher capacity with 35mm DOF characteristics.

I think it's about recording time and data storage for many, right?

The only reason I have ever fought for a scaled option is because right now there is no way to overcrank in-camera without shooting windowed. That's not a preferred choice for many, because you lose DOF characteristics, FOV, and a whole heck of a lot of resolution. I had previously fought (to the annoyance of many) for a 1080p scaled option, because scaling once looks better than scaling to 2K and then doing an additional, minimal re-downscale to finish in 1080 (see the candybar test for proof). But if 4K at 60p is an option, you will never hear me talk about 2K this or 1080 that again - that I promise. As far as my situation is concerned, it has never been about longer recording times... just the ability to overcrank without having to compromise.

 

[Sven Seynaeve]

Seems good for us at all. Then we need some more rendertime, and if you really
want to speed things up get a second smaller system for doing this.

 

[donatello b]

there are projects where you know you want 1080/2k ( period) and want 35mm DOF and you know you will not be reframing ... i would like to AVOID hrs of 4k down to 2k/1080 hrs of rendering ... if it's possible i'll take it - even if i have to load in different firmware ... i'll also take 60fps 4k to CF cards ...

 

[Clint Johnson]

There are going to be a lot of people posting and delivering in 2K or less who might find some value to the 2K scaling option. Some folks were just wondering if the Red camera quad sampling the full sensor to get 2.26K REDCODE at 24 or 30 frames per second would result in a stop or two gained in the latitude along with a reduction in compression artifacts when it is encoded at 6-10 to 1 rather than 24-30 to 1? This may be asking too much of the Red One.

We aren't privy to the inner workings of the Red camera so of course this is all just idle speculation on our part.

 

[Fergus Meiklejohn]

there are projects where you know you want 1080/2k ( period) and want 35mm DOF and you know you will not be reframing ... i would like to AVOID hrs of 4k down to 2k/1080 hrs of rendering ... if it's possible i'll take it - even if i have to load in different firmware ... i'll also take 60fps 4k to CF cards ...

Amen

sometimes I'm filming for immediate edit and delivery (I'm hardly alone :sarcasm: )

It all depends on render times of course but most often when immediate delivery is required I am in the field with my laptop; not in my studio with a massive render farm...
Graeme is a clever chap, but I see no evidence whatsoever that he is suddenly going to reduce the render times in REDcine by 500% just by tweaking the software...

I guess it also depends on what scaling to 1080P would cost the RED project.. I appreciate that the camera is already very competitively priced..

 

[Obin Olson]

Hey if you can do 4k 60p GO FOR IT! that rocks. thought you could not handle the datarate!

 

[Nathan Buxton]

As someone who has no current investment in RED but would love to use it in the future:

Jim is on the right track. I would prefer high-end oriented features rather than "budget" oriented. 4k 60fps is all the overcranking i would ever need from the red. 2k scaled 60fps is merely a budget form. who cares about higher recording times? This is a professional camera. It's not about bending over backwards to let the consumer save a few bucks here and there. It's about enabling professionals to use a professional tool.

And so far everything seems to be working.

 

[BASSAM MSSALATIE]

:sorcerer: 4k 60 fps to CF or Red Drive :sorcerer:
it is too much realy too ,much since Red shipping was a few ,months ago:sorcerer:

 

[Karl H]

Actually Kevin raises a good point, 2K scaled would still be RAW and so would then only yield a 1.4K or something image. it wouldnt look a patch on 4K downsampled. So here I change my standpoint from my earlier post

Totally overlooked

But if there is a way to do 2K scaled RGB at significantly lower data rates to 4K raw, then it is still worth doing for all the reasons I mentioned.

 

[Martin Jäger]

i take the 4k 60fps

i take the 4k 60fps

i take the 4k 60fps - for me the 2k croped 100fps is first priority though.
and one thing i could see as usefull is the above with choosable higher datarates...

martin

 

[Clint Johnson]

As someone who has no current investment in RED but would love to use it in the future:

Jim is on the right track. I would prefer high-end oriented features rather than "budget" oriented. 4k 60fps is all the overcranking i would ever need from the red. 2k scaled 60fps is merely a budget form. who cares about higher recording times? This is a professional camera. It's not about bending over backwards to let the consumer save a few bucks here and there. It's about enabling professionals to use a professional tool.

And so far everything seems to be working.

Dude, you must be rolling with some real big spenders! So a TV drama like Heroes that costs over $70 million a year using less than 2K resolution would be something that you consider a "budget oriented" production... a consumer level shoot looking to save a few bucks?

Now where is that "just teasing" font so this doesn't come across as confrontational?

 

[Antoine Fabi]

I thought it was the data rate that was the limitation, hense asking for 60 fps 2K.


But, SURE it would be even better to have full sensor, full 4K 60 fps.

When do you think it is possible to have this option ?

 

[erbp]

I think it would be incredible to be able to do 4k/60fps to Compact Flash or hard drive, but for my work I would rather have 4k/24fps with half the (current day) compression.

 

[Nils Ruinet]

Well, I'm sorry but to me this sounds like very bad news. :sad:
Of course 4K@60fps sounds great, but it doesn't at all change the need for 2K scaled.

There are at least 3 good reasons why 2K scaled would still be necessary :

- 2K scaled requires 4 times less bandwidth, so you can record 4 times more footage on the same media. If you're on a feature film, with a big crew, this won't matter, but if you're more in a "run'n'gun" situation, with a small crew, and need longer recording times, then this option will be critical.

- You may be able to use slower recording media (CF, SSD, etc...) which will be available for a lower price, and in higher capacities than 4K certified medias. For example, no 16GB CF card has been approved yet by Red for 4K, but I think you could find 32GB cards that would work for 2K... 32GB should provide for at least 1 hour of 2K footage ! Think about that, compared to the 4-5 minutes you get on your 8GB CF card in 4K...

- Processing times in Redcine should be much shorter from a 2K source, than from a 4K source. Once again, this doesn't matter if you have time and/or not a big amount of footage to convert, but what about documentary film, where you often end up with dozens of hours of footage ?

Those who mentionned that 2K RAW probably has a lower resolution than 2K RGB are probably right, but I'm sure 2K scaled would still look much better than 2K windowed (lower DoF and oversampling), so even there, 2K scaled makes sense.

So please, please, please, Jim, I beg you, don't drop 2K scaled !
...even if you also do 4K@60fps...

Or do you mean you just can't do it due to hardware limitations ? That would really suck...
But I hardly believe that, as you always said you could do 1080P RGB Redcode, which I guess needs pretty much the same processing power (or even less, as you don't have to do any debayering, just scaling) ?

Sorry to insist, but this is a very important feature for documentary people. This has nothing to do with higher framerates.
I'm sure you understand that.

Thanks,
Nils.