25mm + 35mm lenses for Epic FF35

[david farland]

The way we use lenses will change when the Epic FF35 comes out next year. Shooting 4K~5K on the Monstro will breathe new life into slower lenses as the more sensitive sensor means smaller aperture are required. Shooting at 6K on the fast sensor also means smaller apertures, thus creating s35 ‘like’ depth of fields.
But as we use more of the 6K sensor, the field of view becomes wider (and depth of field, narrower), and the 50mm lens over the entire FF35 sensor has a similar field of view to a 31mm lens on a s35 sensor. When shooting at full 6K, most s35 lens kits still require 25mm and 35mm lenses which cover the 6K sensor image circle (43mm). Presently all we have is still lenses. But I find it highly unlikely that for the lack of a couple of wide lenses, the FF35 will be so compromised for cine work.

People intending to purchase the FF35 must be holding off buying lenses until they know what brand/lens will support FF35 wide angle. I hope/expect Red will announce a real solution/lens for wide shooting with the FF35 soon. Reason not to announce a FF35 compatible wide cine lenses is they don't have plans for any as they 'know' the FF35 'electronic' lenses will suffice. In any event, presently the FF35 solution isn't as appealing as it could be....and maybe that's the idea. But if Red wish people to buy the Epic X (along with their RPP lenses) and then the FF35, maybe a trade-in for the older 25mm/35mm RPP lenses to FF35 compatible ones would be a solution. Dave

 

[Humberto Rivera]

David let’s not forget about the New Leica f1.4 M Lenses that come in 21 mm, 24 mm and the f0.95 50 mm lens. For the wide angle they are a good option, they are also ASPH and the 50 mm is like seeing in the night, especially with three stops over the Red One.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Pawel Achtel]

FF35 is not appealing because S35 is not broken. :wink5:

The way I see FF35 is that people will be using it with S35 lenses (because they can) and, in the rare cases of still lens conversions: Van Diemen Leica, Red 300mm, Canon, Nikon, Ruby, etc..., they may take advantage of the bigger image circle.

FF35 is more versatile, but no one says you must only use FF35 lenses. It will provide plenty of resolution within S35 crop.

 

[david farland]

FF35 is not appealing because S35 is not broken. :wink5:

Sometimes it ain't because it's broke. It's just something better comes along.
Also to release the FF35 without a proper lens solution is flawed and no company would waste extra money on the 6K technology if it couldn't used to their advantage. Red have chosen to add 2 extra stops to this FF35 camera and not their s35 which tells me something also. A FF35 wide cine lens and it's game on!
Dave,

ps: I know there are beautiful still lenses available, but these aren't everyday cine solutions. I also feel Jim still has the goal to overtake film based cinema acquisition and a 6K camera with 13 stops/4K chroma rez gets close.

 

[Humberto Rivera]

David, I was thinking that the New Leica f1.4 M 21 mm and 24 mm, as well as the f0.95 50mm lenses cover the wide to middle rather well. Then there are the Master primes 75 mm, and 100 mm, and the 150 mm for the longer focal lengths with their 42 mm+ ranges. Let’s not forget the Red Zoom that have been announced; 15-25 mm f2.8 AF, 25-100 mm AF Stabilized, 70-200 mm AF Stabilized, and the 300 mm AF Stabilized, all for the FF35.

Humberto Rivera

 

[Jeff Kilgroe]

FF35 is appealing to me because...

* Larger video frame size and FOV for the times when it can serve a creative purpose.

* And is typically more attractive, IMO, for shooting stills than shooting S35 / APS-C frame sizes.

* Greatly increased vertical sensor area compared to the 2:1 5K Mysterium-X. So not as much need to mount the camera in portrait mode for special uses / FX shots. And superior support for 2:1 anamorphic glass.

* Ability to make full use FF35 glass on a camera that does both stills and motion.

* RED will be introducing their own line of FF35 electronic lenses that are designed for hybrid stills and cine operation.

 

[david farland]

The point I want to make is for the lack of a couple of wides, which if any manufacturer decided to make, would along with the FF35 body itself, tranform the industry. I understand each manufacturer may have to develop their own set to match their existing but achieving hurdles like this is what progress if about. After the Epic X tide recedes, I expect Red will launch a killer storm on how the FF35 can revolutionise [© Red] the industry. Whether they come up with an integrated lens/body solution is not important. What’s important is how many bodies they sell, because like NAB 09 when we saw different lens manufacturers produce PL lens, we’ll see them come to the party with FF35 wide solutions if there's enough FF35 bodies out there. A lot of people seem to want to purchase the Epic FF35 body for the dynamic range thou $32K is a lot of cash for 2 stops, but the point is there may be quite a few bodies out there, particularly once the Red market department get going on it. I understand a lot of people with a commitment to s35 lenses won’t want to see their investment downgraded but it’s the lens manufacturers who will make the difference here. They’re the people who (if they can achieve it) want new opportunities/product lines. Take UniqOptics…they probably sell a few sets a week (if that) and still felt it good business to design a set of lenses to accompany the Red (& other cameras). I spoke to them a while back and they’re prepared to produce FF35 wides if the demand is there.
Red of course are in the best position to capitalize on the FF35 body/lens opportunity, but the industry needs other FF35 cine lens solutions than Red’s lenses. Someone between Zeiss producing a ‘few’ master primes and Canon/Nikon producing zillions, should be able to develop a couple of cine grade medium wides (with aspheric element) for an 800 asa FF35 camera.
Dave,

David, I was thinking that the New Leica f1.4 M 21 mm and 24 mm, as well as the f0.95 50mm lenses cover the wide to middle rather well. Then there are the Master primes 75 mm, and 100 mm, and the 150 mm for the longer focal lengths with their 42 mm+ ranges. Let’s not forget the Red Zoom that have been announced; 15-25 mm f2.8 AF, 25-100 mm AF Stabilized, 70-200 mm AF Stabilized, and the 300 mm AF Stabilized, all for the FF35.

Humberto Rivera

Humberto,
don't know how these Leica lens would go in general pro-cine world. Can I put a FF5 on it and it gives me a good swing, do they breathe? The Red electronics lenses are a bit different. In sure Red will make them very compatible with the FF35 and are probably cheap enough for the Red still owners. They may get the wide angle aberations right and use the camera to control breathing (speculation) but will they prove good enough for the cine world want to use?