25fps to 24fps...

[Lakis Amarantithis]

I have a Sound Devices 788t recorder that I connected via a PRO I/O MODULE to a Red Dragon using a time code cable. I set the 788t to receive time code from the Dragon and start recording when I press the Rec button on the Dragon.

The Dragon and the 788t do no sync in 24fps so I selected the next best = 25fps for both the Dragon and the 788t and the trigger works/sync fine.

I plan to film in 3D at 25fps and then use After Effects and Premiere to change it to 24fps.

The sound will be recorded partially in one of the Red cameras through the PRO I/O XLR's and partially on the 788t both at 25fps

Any ideas/advice/suggestions/opinions?
Did anyone here used a wireless time code transmitter to do the same with the 788t?

Thank you
Lakis

 

[Marc Wielage]

The Dragon and the 788t do no sync in 24fps so I selected the next best = 25fps for both the Dragon and the 788t and the trigger works/sync fine.

Who says? I've done plenty of 23.98 Dragon / Sound Devices jobs. Absolutely no sync issues ever. If the sound gear is correctly aligned, the camera and sound recorder will stay in sync with each other in terms of timecode for more than 6-7 hours, which is generally more than enough time to rejam on a break. I do take the precaution of putting a "lock box" (or Denecke SB-T) on the camera, which ensures correct timecode no matter what happens to the camera battery or software reboot.

Ideally, the sound recorder jams the SB-T. The SB-T jams the camera, then you momentarily jam the slate to the sound recorder. That's four pieces of equipment (sound recorder, camera, lock box, and slate) all with identical timecode, each operating independently.

I plan to film in 3D at 25fps and then use After Effects and Premiere to change it to 24fps.

I'm mystified as to why you believe it's necessary to do this extra step. This will affect every performance and every piece of sound in the film, dropping the speed by 4%. This affects the movement of actors, it affects the pauses between sentences, all kinds of factors. Particularly not good for 3D.

I think you need to research this more carefully and find a way to shoot at the exact same speed at which you need to release the project. If it's intended for theaters, shoot at 24fps (or 23.98fps) and make sure every device involved is set at this same speed. Good camera rental agencies and pro sound companies will be more than happy to come up with a solution for you. In the case of 3D and two cameras, you'll need to use one jam box with both common genlock reference (for phase-locked frame accuracy) and timecode.

I have done 25fps-specific jobs, but only for British/European TV. I totally get that 25fps is a necessary part of delivery for those countries.

 

[David W. Jones]

Who says? I've done plenty of 23.98 Dragon / Sound Devices jobs. Absolutely no sync issues ever..

Have to agree. I have never had an issue like that.

 

[Craig Lees]

Hi Lakis.

Hope some of this might be helpful?:

Not so sure about audio on your SD 788t but for S3D, use a 3d modified denecke SB-T. Solid sync at 23.98/24/25/29.97 on RED DSMC so your audio should be solid too. I have an SB-T 3D mod in the UK. The talented Henry at Richmond Film Services makes the cables for it. You can even do slowmo in multiples of the aforementioned timebases. You just need to get the camera settings and the dipswitch settings right.

Can help you with this if you want to send me a private message?

And for 25 to 24 conversion, FCP7 is one click instant to do this : tools- 25 to 24 conform - though be careful as it does it at the root level so duplicate the clip first to preserve the original clip. If anyone knows how to do this instantly in Adobe CC 2014, I'm all ears!

Hope some of this helps!??

Craig Lees
3dstories.co.uk
ED & SX UK
Lomo anamorphic & FD SSC lens sets

 

[Patrick Tresch]

I shoot 25p for theater. I never shoot 24p (or net NSTC counter part 23.98).
Why not stay in 25p all through the production? Does it have to go to US TVs?

Pat

 

[Lakis Amarantithis]

Thank you Marc, David, Craig and Patrick.

I do have the SB-T 3D.

I think I should explain better perhaps:

No matter what I have tried the 788t does not go into the auto record mode when I set it to 43) TimeCode Frame rate -> 24fps. If you upgrade to the latest version of firmware your 788t then if you go to:

"MENU" -> GO TO NUMBER 43 WHICH IS "TIME CODE FRAME RATE" -> I select 24fps
then go to: 44) TimeCode Mode (select that)
Then Select ExtTC + Auto Record - (that triggers the 788t to start recording every time I start recording with the Reds as long as 1 is connected to it with the timecode cable as it do have it now - supposedly)

The 3D system I have is set properly, with the Deneke SB-T 3D working perfect.

One of the Red Dragons in the 3D configuration has the PRO I/O MODULE attached that is connected to the 788t via a timecode cable that sends the signal to the 788t to start the timecode and recording or stop the timecode and recording.

The Red camera timecode is set to EDGE AND MARKED AT THE BOTTOM LOC as it supposed to trigger through timecode the 788t to start recording automaticaly every time I press the rec button on the Red Dragon.

It works in 25fps and 29.97 fps but NOT in 24fps. I was unable to get help from Sound Devices and from Red. I was told from both that I'm doing everything right and the 788t should have worked. After few calls we arrived at a "gray line" that means that all of us do not know what's going on. It's not something that many people will ask but is very important to me to make it work as I do everything myself many times for luck of budget and because I can move very fast alone as well.

I really like to make the 788t and Red work as it's advertised. All the options are there, it's just the damn 24fps that does not work.

Also...

I went to number 47) TimeCode: Jam Menu -> on the top right side is the receiving time code, in the bottom the transmitting. The top one shows that the Red Camera is transmitting 29.97 even when I set the project and frame rate to 24fps so is this a bug that needs to be fixed perhaps?

 

[Lakis Amarantithis]

I shoot 25p for theater. I never shoot 24p (or net NSTC counter part 23.98).
Why not stay in 25p all through the production? Does it have to go to US TVs?

Pat

I live mainly in the US so yes ideally the movies that I'm making will make it to the theater, dvd's and blu-rays here and internationally.

I'll have at some point to make it 25fps so you might be right there.

It might be easier to go from 25 to 24fps that the other way?

I never done it so I don't know what's involved.

 

[Lakis Amarantithis]

Hi Lakis.

Hope some of this might be helpful?:

Not so sure about audio on your SD 788t but for S3D, use a 3d modified denecke SB-T. Solid sync at 23.98/24/25/29.97 on RED DSMC so your audio should be solid too. I have an SB-T 3D mod in the UK. The talented Henry at Richmond Film Services makes the cables for it. You can even do slowmo in multiples of the aforementioned timebases. You just need to get the camera settings and the dipswitch settings right.

Can help you with this if you want to send me a private message?

And for 25 to 24 conversion, FCP7 is one click instant to do this : tools- 25 to 24 conform - though be careful as it does it at the root level so duplicate the clip first to preserve the original clip. If anyone knows how to do this instantly in Adobe CC 2014, I'm all ears!

Hope some of this helps!??

Craig Lees
3dstories.co.uk
ED & SX UK
Lomo anamorphic & FD SSC lens sets

>>You can even do slowmo in multiples of the aforementioned timebases.
Yes, I know that Craig and the 788t works well with that in multiples as well but not in 24fps as I mentioned earlier.


>>If anyone knows how to do this instantly in Adobe CC 2014, I'm all ears!
In Adobe you right click on the footage in the bin after you import it and select "interpret footage" --> "main" then enter what fps you want.

You can do it also with Effects -> RE: Vision -> Twixtor but the above is way faster.

 

[Craig Lees]

Oh what a pain. Hope you find a solution! Thanks for the tip and aorry my help was no help at all!


Regarding theatre delivery, converting 25 to 24 for DCP is really easy (just need to fix the sound in ProTools). In my experience in making DCP's for indies, it's definitely much easier going 25 to 24 rather than the other way.

I guess the main thing will be if you're filming outside of PAL land, keep an eye out for flicker from practical lights such as fluro's etc running different mains power source hz to your camera project timebase. This has caught me out a few times where you don't notice it as you record but then when you playback at the correct project timebase, the flicker is clearly there.



Craig Lees
3dstories.co.uk
ED & SX UK
Lomo anamorphic & FD SSC lens sets

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Regarding theatre delivery, converting 25 to 24 for DCP is really easy (just need to fix the sound in ProTools). In my experience in making DCP's for indies, it's definitely much easier going 25 to 24 rather than the other way.

But theaters worldwide don't need 24p they also play 25p.

Pat

 

[Lakis Amarantithis]

Thank you Craig, Marc and Patrick.

Your help is much appreciated. I'll film test shots and find out. The auto record works fine also in 48fps! which is very strange but filming 3D in 48fps demands LOTS of space... considering I'm filming in 6k of course.
Bottom line is how the pic looks and how easy it is to match it with external sound for me.

 

[Craig Lees]

Only a certain amount of Media Blocks were installed on the projectors in theatres to run 48fps S3D - I think there is a list somewhere published when Peter Jackson released Hobbit in S3D HFR. Really helps with 3D depth perception IMHO though also has a realness to it which can kinda break the illusions of wizards/dwarfs/elfs/fantasy. Woudo be great for subject matter like sci-fi/natural history etc though probably.

Also, there is no DCI 48fps S3D running 4K either in theatres, ergo no 4K 48fps DCP. Not sure what is happening with avatar sequels? They were rumoured to be shooting in 2K 60p S3D for theatres but that was many many moons ago.

Craig Lees
3D Stories
ED & SX UK
Lomo Anamorphic & FD SSC Lens Sets