24 & 48 fps - shutter "angle"

[Patrick Tresch]

Hello,

I'm just wondering if it would make sense to shoot everything in 48 fps to "future proof" the next movies, wich is BTW more a bet or a guess about the future of cinema.

To make this 100% compatible and "downtimable" to 24p, would it make sense to shoot everything with 360 shutter anlge as the shutter speed would be 1/48th?
So for the present we could use a 24p version without any optical "artefact" compared to traditionnal shooting.

What effect would have the 360 shutter on the 48 fps version?
Will it appear blurry like if we would shoot 360 shutter on the 24 fps version (1/24th of a second shutter)?

We heard about the 48p version and tests done by RED and others. Just wondering in which shutter angle those tests have been shot.

Pat

 

[Rohan B]

well the 48fps at 360 degree will look verry smooth and videoish, kind of smeary,but yes a 24p extract would have similar motion characteristics of 24p with 180 degree shutter

 

[Martin Weiss]

a 24p extract would have similar motion characteristics of 24p with 180 degree shutter

Shouldn't it be exactly the same, as either frame would have been exposed for the exact same 1/48th of a second?

 

[Rohan B]

Shouldn't it be exactly the same, as either frame would have been exposed for the exact same 1/48th of a second?

well yess,that is what i meant

 

[Jarek Zabczynski]

I think it's nonsense to have Peter Jackson and James Cameron dictate how you should shoot your projects. I respect both very much, but I fail to call 48p as the defacto future film standard at this point. How about you wait and see till The Hobbit comes out and see if you like the way the motion looks. Then you decide if you like it or not. Then, and only then IF you like it, should you shoot 48p. Go with the best look for your project. Just my opinion here of course!

 

[Thor Melsted]

Who's dictating anything? Shoot whatever you want to.
Why would anyone shoot with a frame rate they don't like? Ultimately, you decide what's best for your project - just like Jackson and Cameron have decided what's best for theirs.

 

[Iannis Holwech]

Postet many places on this board, still some people might not have seen this yet.

Your comments on 48 fps

by Peter Jackson on Monday, April 25, 2011 at 11:20pm

The news about us filming The Hobbit at 48 frames per second generated a lot of comments. Of course, it's impossible to show you what 48 fps actually looks like outside of a movie cinema, but there were several interesting and insightful questions raised.



We will be completing a "normal" 24 frames per second version—in both digital and 35mm film prints. If we are able to get the Hobbit projected at 48 fps in selected cinemas, there will still be normal-looking 24 fps versions available in cinemas everywhere.



Converting a film shot at 48 fps down to 24 fps is not a hugely difficult process, but it requires testing to achieve the best results. Some of this involves digital processes during post-production. We are also shooting the film a slightly different way, which is a question several of you asked. Normally you shoot a movie with a 180-degree shutter angle. Changing the shutter angle affects the amount of motion blur captured during movement. Reducing the shutter angle gives you the stroby (or jerky) "Saving Private Ryan" look.



However, we're going the other way, shooting at 48 fps with a 270 degree shutter angle. This gives the 48 fps a lovely silky look, and creates a very pleasing look at 24 fps as well. In fact, our DP, Andrew Lesnie, and I prefer the look of 24 fps when it comes from a 48 fps master.



More soon ....



Cheers,

Peter J

http://www.facebook.com/notes/peter-jackson/your-comments-on-48-fps/10150235459531558

What would the shutterspeeds be that equals 270 degree angel on 24 and 48fps?

 

[Patrick Tresch]

What would the shutterspeeds be that equals 270 degree angel on 24 and 48fps?

1/36 and 1/72th if my math is ok.

Thanks for the article. I've read it but didn't attach too much attention to the shutter speed ;-) my bad.

It's like a midway compromise they have found I guess?

Between something too crispy if shot @ 48p 180 degree -> 1/96 wich in 24p would have resulted in a too "Saving Private Ryan" look (assuming the timerewarp process would have simply omissed every second frame).
And shot @ 48p 360 degree wich in 48p could have looked too blurred? Never seen it, so I can't speak...

This is clearly not about imposing a definitive look. But as we are in the eve of a possibly new standard for DCP (48p) it's interesting to "have a look" at it, with the eyes wide open.

Pat

 

[David Mullen ASC]

48 fps with a 360 degree shutter doesn't look as good as with a 180 degree shutter. I learned this years ago when I started doing higher frame rates in digital, you can't really "cheat" for more exposure by just opening up the shutter when cranking up the frame rate because it just doesn't look crisp enough due to the blur. You're better off using a 180 degree shutter at 48 fps and doing some frame blending to create a smoother 24 fps version.

Now at really high frame rates it probably matters less because even with a 360 degree shutter, the amount of blur per frame is going to be small.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

48 fps with a 360 degree shutter doesn't look as good as with a 180 degree shutter. I learned this years ago when I started doing higher frame rates in digital...

Hello David,

I understand the motion blur problem if the final master is seen at 24p (high speed images case here), but how does it look if it is projected at 48p?

Thanks for your comments.

Pat

 

[Rohan B]

Hello David,

I understand the motion blur problem if the final master is seen at 24p (high speed images case here), but how does it look if it is projected at 48p?

Thanks for your comments.

Pat

It looks smeary and videoish.........

 

[Patrick Tresch]

Ok.........

 

[David Mullen ASC]

Looks like, from the Hobbit thread, that Jackson & Lesnie have decided to split the difference and use a 270 degree shutter, which is a simple solution, for the 24 fps version, that's like using a 135 degree shutter, so the motion will just slightly crisper, and for the 48 fps version, just slightly smearier but it depends on the amount of motion in the shot. And nothing is stopping them from using shorter shutter angles for action scenes. The 270 degree shutter also reduces some of the light loss from going up to 48 fps.