23.98 VS 24

[Ian Laurie]

It's true: 24.00fps can work, but it's a pain in the ass in post. Anyone who feels otherwise has not worked in post. But as long as everybody's on the same page, sure, you can edit in true 24fps. But I think it's a bad idea, simply because doing the pull-up from 23.98 to 24 at the end is accepted, understood, and costs no money. And a 23.98 workflow goes well when you have to deal with a half-dozen different post vendors, which is often the case: dialogue editors, sound effects editors, music editors, ADR recordists, VFX people, picture editors, dailies people, and on and on and on. 1

I have personally only seen one film go through post completely at 24.00fps, and that was the original Grownups (Adam Sandler movie). It was an absolute trainwreck the first couple of days, but then was smooth all the way to the end. So it can work; it just goes against the grain of traditional workflows.


Test your workflow, and make sure you hire an experienced post supervisor to make sure all the memos go out and there are no bottlenecks or potential disasters. I have seen some pretty awful times in post simply due to lack of communication and a failure to test everything first.

Thank you for your concern. However I should say that often, I am the one who does the post, i am also the reference between post and set when I am not post. I know my workflow from capture, to edit, fx, compositing, sound and output. I would not make bold claims of it being possible without having already done it.

Also as a note to other posters, bluray, regardless of how you accept it, is a 24 frame consumer video format. So I don't know where this never has been info is coming from.

 

[Ian Laurie]

But I have spent to much time on this. So here is my final advice... If you don't know what to choose, or you rely on significant outside contractors whose equipment or methods are outside your knowledge base, shoot 23.98. If your free to do as you please, have fun with whatever you want. I chose 24, but by all means suit yourselves. 24 can be done. In my experience, there has yet to be a valid reason for ME not to shoot 24. But that is me. I post at 24. I composite at 24. I do it all at 24. Except broadcast... But that's cause I lose decision control at that point. But I don't understand why anyone feels I am wrong for this. I am not. It is right for ME. It may not be for you, and that's okay. Best of luck on all your projects!

 

[M Most]

Also as a note to other posters, bluray, regardless of how you accept it, is a 24 frame consumer video format. So I don't know where this never has been info is coming from.

BluRay releases are almost always sourced from the HD master, which is commonly 23.98.

You seem to want to ask questions about how things are done for the sole reason of saying "well, I'm not going to do them that way because I do my own stuff so I'm going to do it my way." And that's fine, do whatever you want. But why ask the question, and why argue about the answer, especially when it's coming from people like Marc and myself who have been deeply involved in this stuff for a very long time and are not guessing at the answers we're giving you?

 

[Marc Wielage]

Thank you for your concern. However I should say that often, I am the one who does the post, i am also the reference between post and set when I am not post. I know my workflow from capture, to edit, fx, compositing, sound and output. I would not make bold claims of it being possible without having already done it.

If you're handling every facet of post yourself, then there's no problem. But be aware that there's nobody to yell at or get a refund or makegood from if it goes wrong, and nobody from whom you can ask advice at 2 in the morning. And at some point, you will have to deliver 23.98 to somebody for TV delivery.

Me personally, I'm much more comfortable hiring people who are better at their jobs than I am. Very few people have the multi-faceted "Renaissance Man" lives of Orson Welles or Robert Rodriguez. Most of us are lucky to be good at only a couple of things, and nobody is good at everything. Most importantly, there's something to be said about film being a collaborative​ medium, where you rely on the skill and experience of a new person to give you ideas and approaches you could never in a million years have come up with on your own. I find this is particularly true for editing, color, and the final sound mix, all of which take tens of thousands of hours to really master.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

23.97 was and still is a technical aberration we Pal folks dont have.

Please kill that format now.

And a big thumbs up for the great and working 25p 4k DCP distribution.


60hz is a small part of the world Don't forget the rest of the world.



Pat

 

[Ivan McCullough]

Avid has been in use since 1992, and it gained huge popularity in the 1990s simply because it allowed editors and directors to make massive changes very quickly. I believe the first major film to edit on Avid was Lost in Yonkers:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avid_Technology


Video post in America has always been 23.98fps for film, and the reason why was because traditional 525 (aka NTSC) video was based on 29.97 timecode for picture. TV has also become a far bigger market than cinema, plus the theatrical market is transitory; home video and TV syndication lasts forever, and that's all based on 23.98 and 29.97. Heck, most of American HD television is still interlaced and still based on 29.97 dropframe timecode.


Sound at the beginning of the 1980s was traditionally done on 35mm sprocketed mag, and only eventually started transitioning to 24-track analog (linear). Pro Tools and on-linear sound mixing and editing didn't really take hold until the early 1990s, and it was always based on 29.97 timecode, and eventually 23.98 timecode.

If you want to know more about this history, read two books:

Timeline: A History of Editing
by John Buck

Guide to Post-Production for TV & Film: Managing the Process
by Barbara Clark

These books will explain the tradition of the post process and why a lot of steps and procedures were developed the way they were. There are good reasons for a lot of them, though I understand why neophytes who aren't familiar with post question often why things have to be done a certain way, just because of ignorance. (And I'm not using the term pejoratively.)

Thank you Marc for the Info and the links to books.

I wonder still how widespread 23.98 is as a capture format for cinema bound north American Productions. I know in Europe we shoot 24, (some shoot 25 but I have no idea why when it will be screened at 24).

It just seems strange that this is and has never been a problem in Europe but in the home of Hollywood 24fps is a 'problem'.

 

[Ian Laurie]

If you're handling every facet of post yourself, then there's no problem. But be aware that there's nobody to yell at or get a refund or makegood from if it goes wrong, and nobody from whom you can ask advice at 2 in the morning. And at some point, you will have to deliver 23.98 to somebody for TV delivery.

Me personally, I'm much more comfortable hiring people who are better at their jobs than I am. Very few people have the multi-faceted "Renaissance Man" lives of Orson Welles or Robert Rodriguez. Most of us are lucky to be good at only a couple of things, and nobody is good at everything. Most importantly, there's something to be said about film being a collaborative​ medium, where you rely on the skill and experience of a new person to give you ideas and approaches you could never in a million years have come up with on your own. I find this is particularly true for editing, color, and the final sound mix, all of which take tens of thousands of hours to really master.

Well, there's also something to be said for not looking for a scapegoat when something goes wrong. I never yell. And to be honest, around these parts (where I live, not REDUSER), I am the one answering the phone at 2 in the morning. I never said I was good at everything. And I do collaborate. See the post above about a project with a composer. I like to collaborate. I have no problem finding capable people who are also capable of 24fps collaboration. Perhaps that is a by product of living in a relatively remote area of the world where there isn't a lot of legacy equipment to be dealt with. As for "will" have to deliver 23.98 at some point, I have done so on multiple occasions. Its no more difficult to go to 23.98 from 24 than the reverse, so I fail to see your point.

Honestly, I am done with this thread. I feel like I am being attacked for saying that I like to use 24. As if it is some great controversial idea. I use 24. I will continue to do so. Get over it, it doesn't have repercussions for you, and should not matter to you. I have no problem with people who shoot 23.98. good for you. there's nothing wrong with it either. But saying that there is only one way to do it is wrong. I am proof of that. The original post was 23.98 or 24. I put in my 2 pennies, and my reasons. I also conceded that Mike Most knows more about the way that all works than I do or likely will and that if you are unsure of yourself, or unsure of those who you collaborate with go with his advice and go 23.98. I live in a small, very young film market with very recent equipment, for the most part, and very young crews, again for the most part. 24 is simple. With newer equipment it works. I have the advantage that it works for me, both with what I do, and with what I ask others to do. I have worked as DIT on larger collaborative projects where I didn't have the advantage of creative control, and with very little explanation, had colourist, post sound, and visual effects all on the same page at 24fps. we had no issue. None. It is possible. It has, in my experience, not been difficult. your results may vary. be forewarned.

 

[Marc Wielage]

Thank you Marc for the Info and the links to books. I wonder still how widespread 23.98 is as a capture format for cinema bound north American Productions. I know in Europe we shoot 24, (some shoot 25 but I have no idea why when it will be screened at 24). It just seems strange that this is and has never been a problem in Europe but in the home of Hollywood 24fps is a 'problem'.

And yet theatrical films shot in Europe have always been shot at 24fps, while projects shot in Europe for PAL TV have always been shot at 25fps. So even in other parts of the world, there are dichotomies like this. Differences in frame rates can and do lead to sound sync problems (as Mr. Mullin explained earlier).

Wait until 48fps, 60fps, and 120fps start getting adopted. You think things are confusing now... :rolleyes5:

I live in a small, very young film market with very recent equipment, for the most part, and very young crews, again for the most part. 24 is simple. With newer equipment it works. I have the advantage that it works for me, both with what I do, and with what I ask others to do. I have worked as DIT on larger collaborative projects where I didn't have the advantage of creative control, and with very little explanation, had colourist, post sound, and visual effects all on the same page at 24fps. we had no issue. None. It is possible.

24fps absolutely is possible. But it's not ideal, for the reasons I stated before. As long as you have a post supervisor who sends out a memo to all departments making sure absolutely everybody is clear that you're going 24.00fps all the way, and the sound people know, the camera people know, the 2nd unit crew knows, the DIT knows, the editor knows, the dialogue editor knows, the sound effects editor knows, the music editor knows, the ADR editor knows, the sound supervisor knows, the re-recording mixer knows, the conforming editor knows, and the colorist knows, they can all prepare and make sure they're ready. The moment one of them screws up, the whole thing can fall apart like a house of cards. This is bound to happen the moment you have to deal with the outside world, beyond your young film market.

I think the wisest move by far is to ask the distributor what they want. If you know and understand the deliverables up front, then you can work your way backwards and determine how to prepare what you're going to need to deliver at the very end. If you come to them with 24fps elements and all of it is wrong for what they expect, then you'll have an issue. Note that in modern deliverables contracts, both 23.98 and 24.00fps are covered most of the time, but one typically generates the other, so it's not the big deal you think it is.

Mike Most and I have worked in LA for most of our professional careers, so we're most familiar with dealing with the American networks, studios, cable channels, and home video departments. Those have all been ingrained with 23.98 for a long, long time. As long as you're not blindly forging ahead and understand the consequences, then there should be no problem.

 

[Ivan McCullough]

Wait until 48fps, 60fps, and 120fps start getting adopted.....

I really hope that does not happen, not for simplicities sake, for aesthetic reasons.

50i 48p 50p 60i 60p all look like 80's daytime tv to me....

 

[Patrick Tresch]

And yet theatrical films shot in Europe have always been shot at 24fps, while projects shot in Europe for PAL TV have always been shot at 25fps. So even in other parts of the world, there are dichotomies like this. Differences in frame rates can and do lead to sound sync problems (as Mr. Mullin explained earlier).

25p is a SMPTE DCP standard there is no need to shoot in 24p anymore. When the whole project is done in one frame rate there is no sync problem.

Pat

 

[Marc Wielage]

25p is a SMPTE DCP standard there is no need to shoot in 24p anymore. When the whole project is done in one frame rate there is no sync problem.

24 frames is also a SMPTE DCP standard. Why not shoot at that rate?

As an old engineering friend of mine used to say: "that's the beauty of standards. There's so many to choose from!"

25fps does not look great when converted to 29.97 for American TV broadcast or Blu-ray release. There's an odd "videoish" look to it that does not look like film. I don't see this problem with 23.98/24.00 material. But I concede this is an artistic choice.

 

[Patrick Tresch]

25fps does not look great when converted to 29.97 for American TV broadcast or Blu-ray release. There's an odd "videoish" look to it that does not look like film. I don't see this problem with 23.98/24.00 material. But I concede this is an artistic choice.

You've probably seen some 50i converted to 30p... ? I don't know what you are talking about as I never watched 25p content on a NTSC screen.
If you can play 24p on your TV set you should also be able to play 25p. I think 50/60Hz aren't boundaries anymore.

Pat

 

[Marc Wielage]

You've probably seen some 50i converted to 30p... ? I don't know what you are talking about as I never watched 25p content on a NTSC screen.

Ah, I know of 300,000,000 people in America who do so all the time. I wasn't happy with the look on Downton Abbey, as one example, but it didn't stop the ratings from going through the roof. I still think the show would look better at 24fps, but that's my own preference.

The point is: there are a lot of standards to choose from, and people see things differently everywhere in the world. The flicker and motion characteristics of PAL video and 25fps can be very annoying to certain people.

 

[Christoffer Glans]

25p means a little less stutter when panning, even if it's not as noticeable, I think it's the better cinematic choice.
It's also more easy to be divided evenly. 25p 50p 75p 100p.

But right now, I don't think that it matter so much anymore. If screens can show both 24p and 25p or 30p, 48p, 50, 60p 120p, then it will not matter because most content will be streamed or shown online or by file. Bluray DOES support 25p and there are a number of players who can playback it. If you're going for a cinematic release in your country, just check in with the nearest post production facility and see what they deliver to cinemas and shoot accordingly. Don't shoot 23,98 ever, it just creates problems during post. 24p or 25p that's the magic. Personally 25p, don't look back.

 

[Terry VerHaar]

Since this tread has been awoken from the dead, can anyone tell me at what frame rate The Fall was shot? I know it was on Alexa but can't find any more specifics.

Thanks.

 

[Stacey Spears]

Bluray DOES support 25p and there are a number of players who can playback it.

No, it does not. It supports 50i and so 25p is encoded as 50i and uses pulldown (2-2) flags. So while you are encoding 25 progressive frames, the elementary stream is marked as 50i with pulldown flags enabled. 2D Blu-ray supports 23.98, 24, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94 and 60 Hz. 3D Blu-ray supports 23.98. 720p is a bit different. I can't post the UHD Blu-ray framerates until the spec is final.

I don't believe 25p is an output format for Blu-ray players either. Neither is 29.97/30. They support 23.98, 24, 50, 59.94 and 60 Hz output.

HD DVD supported 30p encoding while Blu-ray only supports 30i encoding, but you can use the pulldown flags, to signal 30p. (30 or 29.97)
HD DVD did not support true 24p (or 23.98) like Blu-ray. It encoded 24 progressive frames but used pulldown flags the same way that DVD did and so the elementary stream was marked as 29.97/30.

Most displays in the US do not support 50 Hz input.

 

[Mike Nagel]

No, it does not. It supports 50i and so 25p is encoded as 50i and uses pulldown (2-2) flags. So while you are encoding 25 progressive frames, the elementary stream is marked as 50i with pulldown flags enabled. 2D Blu-ray supports 23.98, 24, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94 and 60 Hz. 3D Blu-ray supports 23.98. 720p is a bit different. I can't post the UHD Blu-ray framerates until the spec is final.

I don't believe 25p is an output format for Blu-ray players either. Neither is 29.97/30. They support 23.98, 24, 50, 59.94 and 60 Hz output.

HD DVD supported 30p encoding while Blu-ray only supports 30i encoding, but you can use the pulldown flags, to signal 30p. (30 or 29.97)
HD DVD did not support true 24p (or 23.98) like Blu-ray. It encoded 24 progressive frames but used pulldown flags the same way that DVD did and so the elementary stream was marked as 29.97/30.

Most displays in the US do not support 50 Hz input.

US Blu-ray players may have an issue with 25p... I've encountered a couple of French Blu-rays that were encoded as 25p and a US PS3 did not play them...

 

[Stacey Spears]

US Blu-ray players may have an issue with 25p... I've encountered a couple of French Blu-rays that were encoded as 25p and a US PS3 did not play them...

Was that the only 50i disc you could not play in the US PS3? Its possible they locked the player to not deal with that framerate. The OPPOs can handle any playback framerate.

Good news is that UHD is supposed to support true 25p as a playback rate. Bad news is that UHD Blu-ray is probably 3840x2160 ONLY. (ie no 4096) So House of Cards will either be cropped or resized down with bars on the side. UHD is looking like it will support: 23.976p, 24p, 25p, 50p, 59.94p and 60p in HEVC. 1080p, on a UHD title, is supported in 23.98 and 24 in either HEVC or AVC.

 

[Mike Nagel]

Was that the only 50i disc you could not play in the US PS3? Its possible they locked the player to not deal with that framerate. The OPPOs can handle any playback framerate.
.

yeah, OPPOs chew anything... I remember I had a few years ago a display cal disc (Burosch Display Tuning) which is from a German vendor that the U.S. PS3 also did not like... it was also 25 fps encoded.

 

[Elias Tejeda]

Lots of interesting info in this thead