Welcome to our community

Be a part of something great, join today!

Register Log in
  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

23.98 or 24 fps - what's the difference?

T

Tai Wah Lim

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 11, 2007
Messages
652
Reaction score
0
Points
0
Can anyone elaborate more on setting 23.98 instead of 24?
 
studiodrome said:
yeah its pretty much the difference for audio. I shoot 23.98, its way easier for post sound. there is no problem filming out 23.98 to 24fps. its still 1 frame to 1 frame. most cameras that say 24p are really 23.98.
Click to expand...

Thanks Shawn.

Therefore why bother 24fps when 23.98 can be filmed out and easier to post sound.

Lim
 
24 is a film standard. 23.98 is a video standard. it just depends on your post. SOMETIMES a straight 24fps is what people want, but for most of us 23.98 makes more sense.
 
I would agree. In general, 23.98 is what you want. 24 will make your life harder in post and even if you're going to do a film out 23.98 still makes sense most of the time.

I'm curious though. When is it smarter to go with 24?
 
If you said 23.98 is for broadcast, but for what system?
PAL is 25fps
NTSC is 29.97fps

I never experienced with 23.98fps before.
 
i believe 23.98 conforms into 29.97... somehow... dunno... I'll stop talking now
 
ah HA!

Many 24p productions, especially those that are made only for TV and video distribution, actually have a frame rate of 24 * 29.97 / 30 frame/s, or 23.976frame/s (24/100.1% to be exact). Many use the term "24p" as a shorthand for this frame rate, since "23.976" does not roll off the tongue as easily. This is because the "30frame/s" framerate of NTSC is actually 30/100.1%, also referred to as 29.97frame/s – this framerate is matched when video at 23.976frame/s has a 3:2 pulldown applied. Similarly, 60i is shorthand for 60/100.1% fields per second.

Film productions may be shot at exactly 24.000 frame/s. This can be a source of confusion and technical difficulties if material is treated as normal video, since the slightly differing framerates can be problematic for video and audio sync. However, this is not a problem if the video material is merely treated as a carrier for material which is known by the editing system to be "true" 24frame/s, and audio is recorded separately from moving images, as is normal film practice.

You're welcome!
 
I hope wikipedia doesn't sue your for plagiarism, just kidding: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24p#23.976p

Of course, whoever wrote that section may very well have copied it without attribution from someone else.
 
Brandon said:
ah HA!

Many 24p productions, especially those that are made only for TV and video distribution, actually have a frame rate of 24 * 29.97 / 30 frame/s, or 23.976frame/s (24/100.1% to be exact). Many use the term "24p" as a shorthand for this frame rate, since "23.976" does not roll off the tongue as easily. This is because the "30frame/s" framerate of NTSC is actually 30/100.1%, also referred to as 29.97frame/s – this framerate is matched when video at 23.976frame/s has a 3:2 pulldown applied. Similarly, 60i is shorthand for 60/100.1% fields per second.

Film productions may be shot at exactly 24.000 frame/s. This can be a source of confusion and technical difficulties if material is treated as normal video, since the slightly differing framerates can be problematic for video and audio sync. However, this is not a problem if the video material is merely treated as a carrier for material which is known by the editing system to be "true" 24frame/s, and audio is recorded separately from moving images, as is normal film practice.

You're welcome!
Click to expand...
OK, you mean this 24P only exist in HD world and it's the easiest way to convert 23.98fps to 29.97 using 3:2 pulldown method rather than using 24fps?

Is 25P exist in 50Hz world?
 
pvillow said:
OK, you mean this 24P only exist in HD world and it's the easiest way to convert 23.98fps to 29.97 using 3:2 pulldown method rather than using 24fps?

Is 25P exist in 50Hz world?
Click to expand...

well, no, 23.98 is the easiest way to convert 24 into 29.97, not the other way around. And since most of our world is 29.97, might as well shoot 23.98 from the beginning.


Yes, 25p is a PAL (50hz) standard as it's just every frame doubled. easy conversion.
 
If you drop something you can't get it back right?

Why drop frames in camera, when you can do it in post.

Wouldn't it make more sense to shoot 24fps>conform to master in 23.976> then if you ever need to go back to 24 you still have the info.

You will never loose a thing.

I just think it's short sighted to drop frame that you might need in the future when you don't have to.

This kind of thinking is inline with RED's principle and Redcode, you have more info than you might need, but you don't have to loose it. So why drop early? Do it in conform.

Once you drop it you will never get back.

What do guys think about my idea?

Shoot 24, conform to 23.976, Post at 23.976, go to digital, broadcast or digital projectors.

Shoot 24, conform to 24fps, Post at 24, out to films at 24.


Tek
 
The frames aren't dropped, it's the timecodes that get dropped. (Yeah, the naming is pretty misleading. Just like how "24p" can refer to either 24 * 1000 / 1001 fps or 24.000 fps.)

Dropframe timecode is only used/defined by 29.97. If you didn't drop timecodes, then eventually a video tapes' timecode will lose sync with real time (e.g. what you'd see on a clock). So there are rules for dropping particular timecodes so that the timecode closely matches real world time.
23.98 is always non-drop frame. There is no dropframe 23.98 (it would be too confusing... or at least, it isn't defined).

To convert between 23.98 <--> 24.000 people will speed up / slow down the audio and the video to match.
 
Guys, do yourselves a favor and ONLY shoot 23.98. Even for a filmout this will be fine. The ONLY reason to shoot "true" 24 is if you were shooting both film and Red in a project and the location sound needed to be in sync.
Even then, all modern film cameras can be set to 23.98, if the majority of the project was Red-based.
It's great that the Red Team gave us the option, but for 99.999% of the projects 23.98 is the way to go. It will drop right in to NTSC 29.97, HD 59.94, and films out fine too.
Cheers,
Harry
 
What if I wanna deliver it to 50Hz world (PAL)?
Is it 23.98fps will be better than 24fps?
Or should I just use 25fps?
 
Project Frame Rates

Project Frame Rates

The problem is the phrase "24 fps" is unclear - there isn't enough precision in that number to understand what is meant.

BUT it still means we use non-drop frame timecode and there are no dropped frames either.

RED-ONE offers two options -

24.00 fps - this is if you wish to work with a 24.00 fps time base (rare)

23.98 fps (a.k.a 23.976) - this is if you wish to work with a 23.98 or a 29.97 fps time base (via 2:3 pulldown)

In the US this is the typical case, hence it is the default Project Frame Rate that the camera boots up in.

In Europe its more common to shoot at 25.00.
 
Reason For 24/23.98

Reason For 24/23.98

Here is the main reason you should care. Audio. Here is the current audio workflow I use on set and for post and a outlined reason why you need to shoot 23.98.

1) Audio is recorded at 24 bit/ 48 KHz

2) Audio is recorded as BWF-M files. That's Broadcast Wave Mono files. 1 separate file per channel. Polyphonic files are not acceptable in the iXML workflow to Pro Tools.

3) Scene and Take names are embedded into the filename. Scene 27A Take 2 from track 1 might read 27A_T2_1.WAV

4) The Deneke Timecode slate to be used on set supports 23.976 Timecode. If the slate does not support this. I would highly recommend that you guys get an appropriate slate rented. This will end up becoming an issue if you have 29.97 slates with 23.98 video. There is no reason to use 29.97 or NTSC in any of your workflow. It is a dead workflow and was only used for downconvert compatibility.

http://www.filmtools.com/decodctssmti.html

5) A Sound Mixer reference mix is placed on track 8. This will be the audio track that you guys use in post..

6) If possible, Jam sync the sound time of day timecode into the Aux TC input of the camera. This will make post syncing much easier. I am not positive if this timecode flows thru to the file, so using the Slate is highly recommended as well.

7) The Red camera is set to 23.98 and NOT 24 fps. If the camera is set to 24 fps, you will have some major problems with sound throughout your workflow since Final Cut will not pull-down your audio files.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top