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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

23.976 or 24 fps??

Jay A. Kelley

Jay A. Kelley

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So I've been shooting with RED for some time now, and to keep things simple I have been shooting as I always have, at 23.976 for broadcast HD.

But... Is that what I really need? 24fps is a "cleaner" format in terms of time code and other things. Also 90% of my final output is to WEB or DVD or Blu-Ray DVD. All of these items play 24fps, correct?

And finally if I do get a project that need's 23.976 I would guess it should not be a big deal to re-render with a pull down.

I woulld be grateful for comments and/or suggestions.

Jay
 
23.98 or 24.00

23.98 or 24.00

Shoot 23.98... true 24.00 is for special occasions. DVD etc works in the same "TV" environment as anything else, hence its really a 23.98 / 29.97 device, not 24 / 30. As for the web - it doesn't care...

There is no time code issue with 23.98, just stay away from Drop Frame - use NDF (Non Drop Frame) which is the default for the RED-ONE



Europe - ignore the above, you are fine with 25 fps ...
 
especialy bar mitzvahs... i heard from a guy who got in trouble shooting with 23.976fps... he got kicked out of the event ;)
 
He got kicked out because he had too much whisky.
Almost all HDTV now in production do support clean 24 and 25 fps.
I agree that it is cleaner to keep all in 24p
For delivery on BluRay and DVD and DI prints it makes sense.
For broadcast you have to be careful.

I use exclusivly 24p
 
Europe...

Europe...

Like Stuart said, in Europe (and all PAL countries!), for TV, DVD, Web, etc... Your perfect at 25fps... For features meant to straight direct return to film for theatrical release, 24fps is even better... No downpulling, etc...
 
I shoot everything at 16fps coz I like that old film look with Babe Ruth flying round the bases.

:o
 
I knew there was something like a shutter angle of like 240° or 270... But they also shot at lower speed, something around 18 or 16fps to get more footage out of their small mags (which you don't want to change too often under fire I guess)...
 
23.98 or 24.00

23.98 or 24.00

Andrew said:
He got kicked out because he had too much whisky.
Almost all HDTV now in production do support clean 24 and 25 fps.
I agree that it is cleaner to keep all in 24p
For delivery on BluRay and DVD and DI prints it makes sense.
For broadcast you have to be careful.

I use exclusivly 24p
Click to expand...

You shoot 24.00 rather than 23.98? Interesting.

Cause' HDTV is NOT 24 fps nor 30 fps nor 60 fps its 1000/1001 of that i.e 23.98, 29.97, 59.94 - same is true for DVD.

The right post house will process 24.00 footage, but for many they can't get their heads around that and sound at 29.97, so prefer you shoot 23.98 fps.
 
saving private Ryan was shot with out of phase cameras at times.
Lots of info out there on the subject.


Now I'm a little dissapointed in the lack of I formation on the fame rate question, this is extreemly important to all of us.

And by the jokes I do suspect few know the true answer.
From what I know almost every project I have worked on we
went to 23.98 because audio pull down work much easier.

That has been the sole reason and I would LOVE as much information on the subject also.


Ernesto lomeli
typed on iPhone
 
Stuart English said:
The right post house will process 24.00 footage, but for many they can't get their heads around that and sound at 29.97, so prefer you shoot 23.98 fps.
Click to expand...

I think Stuart answered that pretty clearly. Sorry we got around the subject. 23.98 fps sounds like a pretty good frame rate for you in the US...
 
True 24fps is something to consider if you do a filmout, otherwise stick with 23,98 or 29,97 in NTSC Land. This was a big issue back with the Varicam as well where you could change the System Frequency between 59,94 and and 60Hz.
 
Andrew said:
Almost all HDTV now in production do support clean 24 and 25 fps. I agree that it is cleaner to keep all in 24p
For delivery on BluRay and DVD and DI prints it makes sense.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this statement, I truly believe that this is incorrect. There is a lot of mis-information out there about this, mostly due to the fact that 23.976p is often referred to as 24p. This was a big industry wide mistake that was adapted early on and has caused a lot of confusion and headaches for people. The main reason to shoot True 24p is if you are shooting for a film out, because this is the native frame-rate of film. If your material is desitned for television, dvd or bluray, then 23.976 is the way to go, because true 24p will only cause major problems down the road. Movies that are shot on film at 24fps are tele-cined at 23.976 for dvd, bluray and television distribution. When shot at 23.976 all it takes is a simple pull-down to get to 29.97 for NTSC delivery, which is the US standard. If you shoot true 24p, you will have to go through complex frame-rate conversions to get your material to look good for dvd and television distribution. There are only a few systems out there that do this well, like a Teranex for example, and time on these is not cheap.

To state that almost all HDTV no in production is shot in true 24p is simply incorrect, it is 23.976p being referred to as 24p. Now 25p is a different story. If your material is destined for PAL land, then 25p is the correct frame rate because PAL is 25fps. This is why many European films will shoot 25fps even when shooting film, because there is no need for a pull-down or frame-rate conversion for them to deliver to television in PAL.

If your material is destined for both NTSC and PAL formats, well this is where things get even more complex. The easiest and standard way there is to still shoot 23.976p. This can easily go to NTSC and PAL formats. How it goes to PAL is a more complex story, which I'd rather not get into now, but if any of you are interested just say so and I'll get into it. I hope this helps to clear up some misconception about 23.976 and 24.
 
jnewm said:
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with this statement, I truly believe that this is incorrect. There is a lot of mis-information out there about this, mostly due to the fact that 23.976p is often referred to as 24p. This was a big industry wide mistake that was adapted early on and has caused a lot of confusion and headaches for people. The main reason to shoot True 24p is if you are shooting for a film out, because this is the native frame-rate of film. If your material is desitned for television, dvd or bluray, then 23.976 is the way to go, because true 24p will only cause major problems down the road. Movies that are shot on film at 24fps are tele-cined at 23.976 for dvd, bluray and television distribution. When shot at 23.976 all it takes is a simple pull-down to get to 29.97 for NTSC delivery, which is the US standard. If you shoot true 24p, you will have to go through complex frame-rate conversions to get your material to look good for dvd and television distribution. There are only a few systems out there that do this well, like a Teranex for example, and time on these is not cheap.

To state that almost all HDTV no in production is shot in true 24p is simply incorrect, it is 23.976p being referred to as 24p. Now 25p is a different story. If your material is destined for PAL land, then 25p is the correct frame rate because PAL is 25fps. This is why many European films will shoot 25fps even when shooting film, because there is no need for a pull-down or frame-rate conversion for them to deliver to television in PAL.

If your material is destined for both NTSC and PAL formats, well this is where things get even more complex. The easiest and standard way there is to still shoot 23.976p. This can easily go to NTSC and PAL formats. How it goes to PAL is a more complex story, which I'd rather not get into now, but if any of you are interested just say so and I'll get into it. I hope this helps to clear up some misconception about 23.976 and 24.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the insight - it's much appreciated. I have one question, however...

What are the potential drawbacks if you shoot a feature at 23.976p... but later on end up needing to make a film print (24)? What should one expect in that situation? What will happen to the quality in the conversion? And how much more difficult/expensive will it be to even make that conversion?

Best,
SF
 
Maybe it is correct that all 24p specs actually do reffer to the 23.97

The best way to check will be to check on the specs of the IC they are using for HDMI INPUT.

Will 23.97 HDMI input take 24p without problem?

Premiere and Encore has the choice for 24p and 23.97 so I think there is a difference in this and I always pick 24p for BluRay mastering and no complains so far.

From Sony specs:
XBR5 series features: Full HD 1080p, Motionflow™ 120Hz, BRAVIA Engine™ PRO, 10-bit display panel and processing, x.v.Color™ capability, Deep Color (HDMI v1.3 option), 1080p, 1080/24p input capable
 
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