2013 - Year of Node Base Workflows - hints for nodal newbs ?

[PatrickFaith]

In 2011 I did a few things on node base workflows, in 2012 about 1/3 of my workflow was node based, but in 2013 I'm 100% node based.

Old time davinci and nuke guys have been on node based flows for awhile, but for a lot of us it's been a big change. Also many of the major packages have really upgraded their nodal flow ... with major node releases for nukex 7, modo 701, realflow 2013 and the new smoke. [both modo and realflow really were not really nodal before]

I am finding I am animating about 5 times faster on the new node based interface of realflow 2013. Also lightworks is perty much nodal, it just doesn't show the lines between the nodes (but the bin/racks with the edit blocks really is a nodal flow). So i am now cut over to a completely nodal workflow (lightworks->nukex->modo->realflow->davinci).

Maybe this is nothing but personal musing, but I feel moving to node base workflows has drastically improved my productivity and the quality of my work. Any of you more long term "nodal" workflow guys have any hints for us nodal newbs on general practices for nodal workflows(seems like all the nodal flows in the packages are similar)?

 

[Mike Harrington]

Been using nodes for about 8 years in Fusion, and Houdini....

My problem is things get messy....my node flows end up looking like my desk. Being organized with nodes can be a concerted effort.

For complicated things....nodes are way better, for simpler things they can get in the way.
In an ideal world, your apps would allow you access to nodes if you wanted it....but offered simpler approaches as well.

Just imagine a node based editor.....would be a nightmare....but.....if you had it you could create your own macros and not need to do any scripting.

Houdini is bar far the best example of how powerful nodes can be. The VEX shading language.....which can be used for everything...not just shading.....is nodal based and will execute as fast or even faster then compiled c++....
You can even dive into basic tools node structures and see what makes them tick, and modify them as you see fit.

But for simpler things, that have pre built tools for the exact thing you need....apps like maya and lightwave can run circles around houdini......but if it gets real complicated....then a maya TD has to start coding....where houdini just dives into the nodes.

 

[PatrickFaith]

Been using nodes for about 8 years in Fusion, and Houdini....

My problem is things get messy....my node flows end up looking like my desk. Being organized with nodes can be a concerted effort.

For complicated things....nodes are way better, for simpler things they can get in the way.
In an ideal world, your apps would allow you access to nodes if you wanted it....but offered simpler approaches as well.

Just imagine a node based editor.....would be a nightmare....but.....if you had it you could create your own macros and not need to do any scripting.

Houdini is bar far the best example of how powerful nodes can be. The VEX shading language.....which can be used for everything...not just shading.....is nodal based and will execute as fast or even faster then compiled c++....
You can even dive into basic tools node structures and see what makes them tick, and modify them as you see fit.

But for simpler things, that have pre built tools for the exact thing you need....apps like maya and lightwave can run circles around houdini......but if it gets real complicated....then a maya TD has to start coding....where houdini just dives into the nodes.

Houdini is a good example for me, since I've been kind of chicken of houdini, but I think it is something I probably should know. I'm going to take a few courses on houdini on fxphd.com. Fortunetly for what I need realflow does all my water stuff (so i don't need houdini for the water simulations).
On organization, I've gotten the "talk" by some old timers on not creating rat nests of graphs. My graphs started out being hiduous, i have started using nuke backdrops fanatically. I like the new interface on real flow with "hubs", i haven't seen that on other systems, but the hubs seem to be keeping my simulations much more organized. I do know python, but I am still not comfortable on switching back and forth between python & nodes in a single workstream.

 

[Mike Harrington]

[/url] image by mdharrington1, on Flickr[/IMG]

A node flow for a music video I did a while back.....a lot of those nodes are actually macros with up to 20 nodes in each....I have no idea how many are in there....

 

[Mike Garrick]

Im hearing you Patrick especially with "Smoke" Have used in big suites in a previous life.

However the 5.5K entry price for Aussies as opposed to 3.5K for US will ensure it will have limited appeal...... here...unfortunately.

 

[Mike Harrington]

Why do Aussies always get the pricing shaft?....

Seems to be common nowadays

 

[PatrickFaith]

A node flow for a music video I did a while back.....a lot of those nodes are actually macros with up to 20 nodes in each....I have no idea how many are in there....

That is so cool, I have the original (master print) masks for creating the first RAM & CPU ... LMAO ... looks kind of like that.

Im hearing you Patrick especially with "Smoke" Have used in big suites in a previous life.


However the 5.5K entry price for Aussies as opposed to 3.5K for US will ensure it will have limited appeal...... here...unfortunately.

Node base flows are still a lot more, I'd say getting a full nodal flow suite is still around $15k US. (probably 2 years back would have been $200k for the full suite on linux) The prices still are dropping. I btw am also moving to LINUX node base flows, some of the software is still hugely expensive but now lightworks,realflow,nuke and modo have linux at the same price as windows. [I am testing the new linux super computers, so trying to get ready for 6k workflows in 2014]

 

[Mike Harrington]

That's not for the whole music video.....that's 1 shot....
Albeit 80% of it could be reused....but you can see how it can easily get away from you.

Lots of guys have these beautiful organized flows with notes everywhere.....what you see there is me on a good day

 

[Mike Harrington]

That is so cool, I have the original (master print) masks for creating the first RAM & CPU ... LMAO ... looks kind of like that.

That sounds like a bit of a collectors item? I imagine it would be worth a bit...

 

[PatrickFaith]

That sounds like a bit of a collectors item? I imagine it would be worth a bit...

My dad was one of the early Fairchild physicists ... so i have a bunch of cool stuff that I just like to look at.

 

[Sandro Klopfstein]

the foundry should just fully incorporate hiero into nukeX (and kill the regular nuke along the way), that would be soooo awesome.

 

[Sandro Klopfstein]

and autodesk really needs to polish smoke, imho. there's just too many little things like pulldown menus just for on-off-selection (checkbox anyone?) or windows that dont open unless you close another one first, secondaries selections that cant be custom named, etc. you know, all these little details that when summed up get really really annoying and distracting.

it's an amazing software from what it can do but from a userfriendliness it's probably one of the worst I've ever laid hands on.

 

[Bob Gundu]

I think my first foray into nodes was with Alias Composer and Discreet flame. Since then it's been Shake and Nuke. Its been a battle for me to get into After Affects for its lack nodes.

 

[PatrickFaith]

the foundry should just fully incorporate hiero into nukeX (and kill the regular nuke along the way), that would be soooo awesome.

I do think the nuke and nukex thing is confusing, and with the hiero on top of it, the whole thing get's real pricey. I have just barely looked at hiero ... to me hiero comes in when you have over 3 people and up to 200 working on post. I haven't really tried any of the collaboration tools on top of the node based flows.

and autodesk really needs to polish smoke, imho. there's just too many little things like pulldown menus just for on-off-selection (checkbox anyone?) or windows that dont open unless you close another one first, secondaries selections that cant be custom named, etc. you know, all these little details that when summed up get really really annoying and distracting. it's an amazing software from what it can do but from a userfriendliness it's probably one of the worst I've ever laid hands on.

All the 3d packages I'm use to using have that "dual" node issue. modo701 just updated the nodes and I need to go through a class on it, modo in general was designed more for artists ... so i'm hoping the node interface isn't too bad. btw blender moved to a full node interface, and I think they did a perty good job. I think it will be competitive in 2014 with the big guys.

I think my first foray into nodes was with Alias Composer and Discreet flame. Since then it's been Shake and Nuke. Its been a battle for me to get into After Affects for its lack nodes.

Seems like there is a big price and learning jump from things like AE to shake/nuke/maya/modo. I also use AE for anything under 5 minutes, AE's my kind of powerpoint for video, but the second I need seamless vfx i jump to the other tools. I btw also use syntheyes in the mix (it isn't node based ... but the math is so good that I just have forced myself to learn the interface). With openexr 2 and alembic, i'm hoping the integration of these packages will get better. I am currently using dpx, openexr, alembic and python scripts to integrate the nodal packages ... AE/Premiere you really don't have to think much about that type of stuff. Good thing though of using a bunch of packages is you get use to using the best tool for the job, rather then trying to pound everything with a layered based system.

----

btw ... super nice thing on moving to node based is it eases the move to linux ... i'm finding everything is about twice as fast on a uber linux machine (without even tuning anything). Also allows an easy migration to linux grid/clouds.

 

[Noel R.]

I can get lost in After Effects. A composition, within a composition? What is this...Inception? One thing I don't like about After Effects is that if you scale something down, lets say a 4K image to 1920X1080 then pre-compose it, now that pre-comp is stuck at that lower resolution if you try to zoom in close to it it get's pixelated, even though the origin is a 4K file. Is this the same with nodal based compositors, or do they always maintain the same resolution?

 

[Sandro Klopfstein]

I do think the nuke and nukex thing is confusing, and with the hiero on top of it, the whole thing get's real pricey. I have just barely looked at hiero ... to me hiero comes in when you have over 3 people and up to 200 working on post. I haven't really tried any of the collaboration tools on top of the node based flows.

here, it's usually just me doing stuff in nuke. hiero is handy in the way it gives you an "xml timeline" in nuke and you can easily compare versions of shots. I haven't checked out any of its other abilities, as I've just used the 15 days trial so far, it seemed a little buggy, too. but a proper timeline thing is really what nuke needs, imho. we're a small business and buying both, nukex and hiero is too pricy indeed. thank god you can rent licenses whenever the budget allows it.

Seems like there is a big price and learning jump from things like AE to shake/nuke/maya/modo. I also use AE for anything under 5 minutes, AE's my kind of powerpoint for video, but the second I need seamless vfx i jump to the other tools. I btw also use syntheyes in the mix (it isn't node based ... but the math is so good that I just have forced myself to learn the interface). With openexr 2 and alembic, i'm hoping the integration of these packages will get better. I am currently using dpx, openexr, alembic and python scripts to integrate the nodal packages ... AE/Premiere you really don't have to think much about that type of stuff. Good thing though of using a bunch of packages is you get use to using the best tool for the job, rather then trying to pound everything with a layered based system.

I still really like AE loads. I come from a photoshop background so getting the hang of AE was really easy. But I get how a million layers (especially when importing an xml timeline) and countless pre-comped stuff can get messy, I however don't think it's any more messy than when you're looking at the node tree you've just created and try to find that one node to adjust something
layer based workflow has its pros and cons and limitations, just as node based workflow does. this is why I'm so intrigued with smoke. I just don't seem to get the hang of it yet, especially regarding native r3d workflow... so if anyone with experience could enlighten me, that'd be awesome. the tutorial videos by autodesk on youtube didn't do the trick so far.

 

[Barend Onneweer]

I can get lost in After Effects. A composition, within a composition? What is this...Inception? One thing I don't like about After Effects is that if you scale something down, lets say a 4K image to 1920X1080 then pre-compose it, now that pre-comp is stuck at that lower resolution if you try to zoom in close to it it get's pixelated, even though the origin is a 4K file. Is this the same with nodal based compositors, or do they always maintain the same resolution?

Nested timelines are a very common concept. These days it's quite easy to navigate from a nested comp to the parent comps using the micro-flowchart in the top of the comp window.

If you want to preserve resolution when scaling up nested compositions you enable the 'collapse transformations' switch for the layer in the parent comp. Also works for masks, text and other vector elements.

 

[Mike Harrington]

I still really like AE loads. I come from a photoshop background so getting the hang of AE was really easy. But I get how a million layers (especially when importing an xml timeline) and countless pre-comped stuff can get messy, I however don't think it's any more messy than when you're looking at the node tree you've just created and try to find that one node to adjust something

One difference is the visual cue's a nodal flow can give you....

the flow I posted earlier, has hundreds of nodes....
Even though I haven't looked at that comp in about 2 years...I can remember exactly what each area is for....even what each sub group of nodes is for.
The organisation of the comp is represented visually, and while the mini flowchart in AE helps...to have the same control and power in a layered type system....takes an awful lot of pre-planning.

For instance I can output the values of a node....and pipe it into multiple nodes....in AE you can do that through precomps....but the organization of it gets crazy


The other nice thing about nodes is the absolute control....think of this example
I can do a keying operation, output just the red channel...time reverse the red channel......send that to a blur node...have it drive a particle system...and take the result and combine it back into the image...and use it as an erosion for the matte...how many steps would it take to do that in AE?I would be scratching my head for about 20 minutes trying to figure out how to do it....whereas with fusion(or nuke)...you just start piping it together exactly how I described

Just to do a simple lightwarap in AE in 3d space usually involves multiple nested comps, copying cameras...link camera through expressions ect ect ect
With fusion...you just pipe the camera into as many nodes as need it...

 

[Sandro Klopfstein]

One difference is the visual cue's a nodal flow can give you....

the flow I posted earlier, has hundreds of nodes....
Even though I haven't looked at that comp in about 2 years...I can remember exactly what each area is for....even what each sub group of nodes is for.
The organisation of the comp is represented visually, and while the mini flowchart in AE helps...to have the same control and power in a layered type system....takes an awful lot of pre-planning.

For instance I can output the values of a node....and pipe it into multiple nodes....in AE you can do that through precomps....but the organization of it gets crazy


The other nice thing about nodes is the absolute control....think of this example
I can do a keying operation, output just the red channel...time reverse the red channel......send that to a blur node...have it drive a particle system...and take the result and combine it back into the image...and use it as an erosion for the matte...how many steps would it take to do that in AE?I would be scratching my head for about 20 minutes trying to figure out how to do it....whereas with fusion(or nuke)...you just start piping it together exactly how I described

Just to do a simple lightwarap in AE in 3d space usually involves multiple nested comps, copying cameras...link camera through expressions ect ect ect
With fusion...you just pipe the camera into as many nodes as need it...

hehe, I guess I could learn a little more about keeping my nodes organised

dont get me wrong, I absolutely agree on the flexibility of nodes vs. comps/layers. this is why I got into nuke. keying, retiming, denoising, tracking, etc, I do all those things in nuke. however, for "quick" stuff, plain 2D, I'd say you're still faster in AE. which is why I want to keep using both. maybe I'll change my mind in a year's time with more experience.
and lest we forget, there's so many really cool plugins for AE that make my life so much easier. Optical Flares is probably a good example (although I think its about to be released for OFX). vfx artists working for jj abrams made their flares in AE with OF, exportet them with alpha and composited them onto plates in nuke...

 

[PatrickFaith]

One of my favorite things with nodes is "copy/paste", what I do is take a nice looking outlined graph like what Mike did ... and just copy/paste nodes for new scenes/composites. I also do this with all my classes on nuke, i just copy/paste nodes from a class to current work i'm doing - to get me started on something. The ability to copy/paste to email and forums also I think makes the nuke forum one of the most "work" useful, in that if someone has a problem they just past the nodes into the post and it allows others to see what they are doing and propose changes. The graph views also help groups of people to work, share and understand what others are doing quickly. I think how nodes work with teams of people is probably one of their best strengths.