2/3rd, S35, or FF35 - Questions to help determine the right fit

[Daniel Cegla]

Reading through all the available info, I wanted to ask some of the gurus here to help clarify a couple things for me as I choose which camera to pick up later this year (if it indeed launches this year).

The 2/3rd Scarlett has everything I need and want feature/resolution wise. I would most likely want the Brain Only to allow me to interchange lenses. My question though is this:

- If I purchase lenses for the 2/3rd Scarlet, and later upgrade to an S35 or FF35 Scarlet (or Epic) brain - will those lenses be the wrong fit for those brains? I do not want to invest into a whole set of lenses that I see as a temporary solution until I could afford a higher-end brain.

- I shoot a lot of weddings and sports highlights... but also a lot of short films and music videos. My first thought is that the 8x Fixed would probably be a better lens setup for live event coverage, giving me a lot of quick flexibility with focal length. However, with music videos and short films, I can see myself really wanting interchangeable lens for artistic freedom. Is it possible to purchase a sort of 8x Zoom Lens that would work as well as the fixed lens camera, but that I could drop onto the 2/3rd Scarlet, Brain Only, as well as change out for primes and other lenses when doing music videos and indie films?


And then... the S35....

What I like about the S35 is the massive jump in sensor size - of course. If I understand correctly, this will result in much better low light, noise reduction, vastly improved Dynamic Range & Depth of Field. Is this correct? The other thing that I *think* I understand about the S35 is that it moves me into a whole new category of lenses, is this correct?

- Are the S35 lenses fully compatible with what I would want to use on a 2/3rd Scarlet? Or will these have two totally different set of lenses? Are there advantages to these lenses VS the Scarlet 2/3rd, or do the advantages lie only in the larger sensor and it's benefits?

- The only TWO drawbacks here (besides the higher price) is the same question I had with the 2/3rd Scarlet Brain Only - will I have access to some sort of zoom lens, somewhat equivalent to the likes of the 8x fixed, that would be great for shooting sports and live events? Also, I regret losing the 120fps overcrank that the Scarlet offers. I am assuming this is due to the capabiltiies of the brain... though it seems odd that even at 2K, the S35 cannot match the 2/3rd inch Scarlet's 120fps @ 3K?

What of these thoughts/concerns?


LASTLY (I promise ),

The FF35. I know details are scarce, but my question is pretty simple. The benefits of jumping to a FF camera... I know that the larger sensor uses a whole different set of lenses. Is the only benefit here just the slightly larger sensor and the benefits that come with that? How big are the benefits VS S35, really?

AND - those benefits, do they relate mostly to still capture, or video? I am primarily interested in video, and I need a versatile camera that will perform well in sports, weddings, and live event video, as well as indie films and music videos. Will FF lenses be just as good as S35 lenses for video? Will I have some sort of equivalent of an 8x Zoom Lens? Are the image quality benefits that extreme over the S35? In stills, and in video?


Sorry for the long post. Simply, I am at a loss for which camera fits me best. Do I need the Fixed Lens 8x for the versatility? Or will I have that capability on the 2/3rd brain only, plus the added flexibility of lens mounts? If so, do I jump up to the S35 for the massive increase in sensor size? If I am to start investing in lenses, ought I to put the money here, rather than into a 2/3rd sensor? And if I am investing all of this into lenses, is it best to deal with FF lenses from the start, and put in the extra money from Day 1 to get the FF35, with lenses that won't be outdated? As a filmmaker primarily, is my best bet with the FF35, or the S35, and why? Is the film quality of the S35 something that is relatively close to the FF35, in terms of DR & DOF (not resolution... 1080p is enough resolution for me to begin with).... or is the FF35 really the way to go for cinema lenses and quality in the long term?

And of course, brining it full circle... the 2/3rd Scarlet with that 8x Fixed... I am concerned I will miss the 8x Fixed for my needs. I am concerned I will miss the 120fps over cranking of the Scarlet. I am concerned the 8x Fixe won't offer me something I want most, that is excellent looking images via the lens selection like seen on the DSRLs people use nowadays for HD recording. I am concerned if I don't go S35, I will invest in lenses I will end up wanting to ditch when I upgrade the brain... and likewise I am concerned if I go the S35 route, I will be in the same shoes in the longterm as FF35 is really the "proper" solution to really, truly do it "right." I am concerned the FF35 may be substantially better in terms of DR/DoF than the S35.


Please help me out here...

Thanks!

 

[Nick D]

My Simplest answer:

Depends on your budget/timeframe and your client's willingness to pay ...

My best initial general advice is go for the fixed 2/3 Scarlet 8X for your videography needs and do amazing work, impress your clients and rent the Red One / Epic with Primes if they are willing to pay you more...

We don't know enough at this stage about the specifics as there is no abundant footage yet from the Scarlet, but good things should be coming soon .

I think the moving pictures will be worth a thousand words (or bucks), and will ultimately be your guide ...

 

[Mohammed El Sharqawy]

every format has its own aesthetics, advantages and drawbacks.. on all the aspects and shooting style.. as Nick D said its better for you to get the 8x fixed lens as starter kit then after you can decide which way to go on the other type work music videos, films etc.
you might find yourself happy with what you have or you decide for another 2/3" interchangeable format coz the liked the experience with 2/3", or you may find that small sensor isn't enough for some type of work.. then you decide to got for S35 and FF..
and also renting is a good option..

 

[David Rasberry]

You could not buy an aftermarket servo controlled zoom for Scarlet Cinema new for less than about twice the cost of a Scarlet fixed. If you want the fully electronic lens controls the fixed is the way to go. The only thing you give up is perhaps a stop of speed or so compared to good primes. This is also a better choice if you want to move to S35mm format in the future, as the lenses you will need will be different. All of the modules and accessories you buy for the 2/3" fixed will work with the S35 brain too.
If budget is an issue, the fixed is definitely the way to go. By the time you assemble a practical field package with enough add ons like batteries, filters and such to cover a full day of shooting realistically you will be in the $7k-10k range.
I am planning on a Scarlet Cinema myself. Package is pricing out for what I know I will need at around $10k before lenses and I already have more than $3k in used 16mm lenses for it. A full set of new mini-primes would add $4750. Plus these are all manual lenses, no electronic lens controls of any kind. If I add a used servo zoom motor system that is another $2k. So closer to $15k or so for a complete field package, not including tripod and lights, just camera.
If you like a light compact camera for run and gun style shooting with a practical broad range servo zoom that can cover most of what you shoot with one lens, 2/3" is a more practical format. One reason for its overwhelming popularity in general video production.
I don't think the overall sensitivity and noise for the 2/3" will be radically different from the larger format.

 

[Thomas Koch]

I plan on getting them ALL!!!!

 

[Justin O'Neill]

- If I purchase lenses for the 2/3rd Scarlet, and later upgrade to an S35 or FF35 Scarlet (or Epic) brain - will those lenses be the wrong fit for those brains? I do not want to invest into a whole set of lenses that I see as a temporary solution until I could afford a higher-end brain.

Yes, if you purchase S16 or 2/3" lenses they will definitely not cover the S35 and FF35 sensors further up the line.

You can put S35 and FF35 lenses on the 2/3" Scarlet but there will be a large crop factor and you won't be able to get wide shots. Notice that the miniRED primes start at 6mm on the wide end. 6mm FF35 lenses exist but they are hugely expensive and distorted. www.mir.com.my/6mmf28.htm

Check this post out for a visual on how sensor formats effect field of view: www.reduser.net/519532

I agree with David. If you want to upgrade to S35 or FF35 later go with the 2/3" fixed now.

 

[Daniel Cegla]

Awesome advice, thanks you guys - for the help AND taking the time to read my monster post.

Sounds like out of the 2/3rd format, the FIXED is the way to go for me. While the S35 would be a nice option, having to add a servo zoom lens + all the primes to make it worthwhile, the price REALLY jumps. It also sounds like what I am hearing is that w/out adding a powered servo zoom lens to something like the S35, It'd be not very convenient for live event coverage.

And just to clarify: is it correct to say that the S35 + a 3rd Party Powered Servo Zoom Lens + Primes + Accessories would be the best of both worlds, but just very expensive?

So considering price, I think the Scarlet Fixed is where I will start... but it sounds like you guys are saying I should be keeping my eyes on the S35 brain + lenses to drop in and use with all of my accessories in the future, and end up with basically one set of accesories, a FIXED 2/3rd, and a S35+Lens setup (someday?) So basically, I'd have both?

David Rasberry - you mentioned that "I don't think the overall sensitivity and noise for the 2/3" will be radically different from the larger format". I know no one has used the camera yet, but based on what we know... is it widely expected that, barring the massive resolultion improvement when jumping to the S35, and prime lenses that give an additional stop of light, that the DR/DoF will actually be pretty similar when using the 2/3rd VS the S35?

If that's the case, and the 2/3rd offers comparable low light, dynamic range, and Depth of Field... well, maybe I could stick with that longer than I think. But if just seems a larger sensor would improve DR/DoF/Low Light drastically??

Of course, the other question is, on the 8x Fixed - how wide is wide, and how long is telephoto? I guess we will see.

Yet one more question: I currently own an HVX200 w/batteries, P2. I am not sure if I should keep the camera for more risky shoots, such as if I wanted to shoot a snowboarding highlight, and also as a backup or B-Roll camera for wedding shoots and what not, or even a camera to have around to shoot behind the scenes footage when working on projects. It could also be nice as a way to capture two more audio channels from the back of a wedding ceremony (setup as a back cam, and put in the soundboard audio feed + wireless lavs)... OR if I should sell it to put towards the Scarlet & more accessories. The reason I wonder is, will this camera likely be a POOR MATCH for the Scarlet if I ever wanted to use Scarlet footage in conjunction with footage shot on the HVX200? It loses a lot of value if I shoot a live event primarily on the Scarlet, and want to match in some different angles with the HVX200 and it looks jarringly inconsistent.

And on a semi related note... I have a Manfrotto tripod head, audio technica shotgun, lowel light kit, sennheiser lav, DVTEC MultiRig Pro that I have been using with the HVX... I assume all of these accessories should carry over and be a good match with the Scarlet as well?

 

[Erik Bien]

is it widely expected that, barring the massive resolultion improvement when jumping to the S35, and prime lenses that give an additional stop of light, that the DR/DoF will actually be pretty similar when using the 2/3rd VS the S35? But if just seems a larger sensor would improve DR/DoF/Low Light drastically??

Daniel, please see this post.

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Daniel, keep in mind RED has support for electronic Canon and Nikon lenses (including zooms). It is impossible to know exactly how touch focus tracking, face tracking, etc. will work on the Scarlets but it will probably be pretty amazing. Nikon and Canon zooms are fairly cheap when compared to cinema lenses.

You don't quite gain a stop of light when you move to S35 lenses. The miniRED primes are t1.5 which is extremely fast. The RPPs are actually t1.8 so they are a tad slower. Ziess Super Speeds are t1.3 so you do get a little more light with those. Now the fixed Scarlet zoom is t2.6 so you do gain about a stop when you move to fixed lenses, 2/3" or S35.

I think most of the benefits of S35 that people talk about DR wise come from downrezzing 5k to 1080. Downrezzing makes noise less visible so effectively gives you a bit more dynamic range. Imagine taking a 5k image and cropping it to 3k. The 3k image doesn't suddenly have less DR, but if you re-sized the 5k image to 3k some noise would disappear.

2/3" definitely does not allow for the same depth of field as S35. If you shot at t2.6 on the fixed Scarlet it would be the equivalent to shooting t4 at the same field of view on an S35 sensor. www.reduser.net/517588

 

[David Rasberry]

When it comes to S35, compact wide range servo zooms don't exist. You could still shoot with B4 2/3" or 16mm zooms at a 2k crop though.
DOF is a function of of lense focal length and aperture settings. You get shallower DOF at the same field of view and f stop with S35 because the lens focal length is roughly 2.5 times longer. A 25mm lens on S35 gives the same field of view as 10mm lens on 2/3". Compared to something like your HVX, 2/3" has much more flexible DOF characteristics, similar to 16mm film. On the other side of the scale, focusing accurately by eye in run and gun situations, especially in low light conditions, is much more difficult with S35.

Sensitivity and dynamic range should be very close to the same for the two formats, as they will share the same electronics and similar sensor technology. 2/3" will probably show a little more noise in extreme low light conditions. When asked, Jim said the 2/3" sensor is really good and the advantage for S35 slight. It is not like comparing radically different camera designs between different manufacturers and types. There is a lot of popular mythology about radical DR advantages of larger sensors/pixels over smaller ones that isn't necessarily true between these two cameras.
To get an idea, download and watch the MX sample footage here that includes both 4k S35 and 2k cropped 2/3" sized footage shot under the same conditions with the same camera. Scarlet 2/3" should be a bit better than the 2k crop since it is 3k resolution and downscaling to HD offers some of the same noise reduction effect as doing it from 4k.

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42042

 

[Justin O'Neill]

When it comes to S35, compact wide range servo zooms don't exist. You could still shoot with B4 2/3" or 16mm zooms at a 2k crop though.

They don't exist at S35 but I don't see any drawback to using FF35 Canon or Nikon zooms since many of them start at 17mm at the wide end.

 

[David Rasberry]

They don't exist at S35 but I don't see any drawback to using FF35 Canon or Nikon zooms since many of them start at 17mm at the wide end.

They are relatively slow and the 2 stop exposure shift from wide to long for something like the 18-200 is very noticeable on a zoom. Steve Gibby shoots with this kind of setup a lot, but he uses them like variable primes: zoom to reframe, focus, shoot. Definitely workable within limits though.

 

[Daniel Cegla]

I was a little confused by the MX footage. First, what IS the MX? Is it an S35 or Scarlet 2/3rd? They never distinguished which clips were shot on what… and I don't know what an MX is. Was it all shot on an S35, but some of it with a 2K crop? Is a 2K crop only using PART of the S35 sensor, thus being different than shooting with the full S35 sensor and down razzing to 2K? Why would anyone want to do this? If this is the case, when shooting on the S35 w/2K crop does that effectively give the camera similar characteristics to a Scarlet 2/3, since it uses the same amount of sensor space that the Scarlet 2/3 has available?

All I know is the stuff AFTER the girl blew out the candle, when they switched to the T2.2 lens I presume, did not look nearly as good as the first half.

So you mean to say, I could get a compact, wide range servo zoom that is designed for a 2/3rd Scarlett, drop it onto the S35, and shoot in 2K crop? And it would be the same as having a Fixed 2/3 Scarlet? So basically I could buy an S35 and when using it with that servo zoom, it would function very similar to the Scarlet 2/3rd, but when I pull that lens off, it could function with interchangeable S35 lenses?

Next….

I've read here it would be hard to do live events with moving objects on an S35 due to that shallow DOF. But if I use the S35 in 2k Crop mode and drop on a powered servo zoom lens designed for a 2/3rd Scarlet, wouldn't that inherently solve any and all drawbacks, other than price?

 

[Ethan Lane]

I was a little confused by the MX footage. First, what IS the MX? Is it an S35 or Scarlet 2/3rd?

The MX is the new sensor technology that so far has only come out for the red one. So the MX footage that you have seen is from upgraded R1s. From what I know, the MX will be available in the 2/3 and S35 scarlet and the epic X and S35, at least according to charts i've seen

 

[Justin O'Neill]

Is a 2K crop only using PART of the S35 sensor, thus being different than shooting with the full S35 sensor and down razzing to 2K? Why would anyone want to do this? If this is the case, when shooting on the S35 w/2K crop does that effectively give the camera similar characteristics to a Scarlet 2/3, since it uses the same amount of sensor space that the Scarlet 2/3 has available?

Yes, 2k mode is a 2k crop of the middle of the sensor. The main reason people use this is because it allows for higher frames rates. 4k @120fps would be an insane amount of data throughput so the camera just takes a 2k crop @120fps and the throughput is much more manageable. Some people shoot at 2k because they only have access to S16 lenses.

The S35 sensor using a 2k crop is very close in sensor size to the 2/3" Scarlet. The Scarlet packs more pixels (3k horizontally) into the 2/3" size so it will give you more resolution.

You could definitely use a 2/3" zoom lens on a S35 Scarlet in 2k mode and then switch to 5k and use cinema lenses for situations that call for it.

 

[Daniel Cegla]

So S35 in 2k crop + powered servo zoom lens = *almost* identical to Fixed 2/3rd Scarlet, except that the Scarlet would have a slight edge since you'd be downrezzing from 3k instead of 2k?

The DOF Characteristics would be the same as well, so it wouldn't be so hard to focus on moving objects at live events in lower light?

Making it so the *ONLY* other drawback besides the 2K vs 3K downrez is simply price? In that case, if I could afford it, would you whole heartedly recommend the S35 over the 2/3rd Scarlet?

 

[David Rasberry]

So S35 in 2k crop + powered servo zoom lens = *almost* identical to Fixed 2/3rd Scarlet, except that the Scarlet would have a slight edge since you'd be downrezzing from 3k instead of 2k?

The DOF Characteristics would be the same as well, so it wouldn't be so hard to focus on moving objects at live events in lower light?

Making it so the *ONLY* other drawback besides the 2K vs 3K downrez is simply price? In that case, if I could afford it, would you whole heartedly recommend the S35 over the 2/3rd Scarlet?

Yes, S35 would give you more flexibility all around in a single camera system. However one thing to think about is that with a fixed 2/3" brain at lower cost than a good 2/3" format HD lens, one might still be better off buying both a fixed brain and an S35 brain and sharing the other modules and accessories between them. Then you could fit the S35 out with a Nikon or Canon electronic lens mount and use relatively less expensive still primes with electronic control features too.

Personally I am going for the 2/3"/16mm format because I happen to prefer it for my style of shooting. I am essentially looking for the digital replacement for a my 16mm film camera. A digital version of a Bolex if you will.
I can for instance carry the 2/3" cinema model with my Angenieux 12-240mm T5.6 zoom for a day hike in the mountains and have a single camera and lens to cover normal to extreme telephoto with a total weight around 20 lbs or so including batteries, tripod and accessories. A 600mm T5.6 lens for an S35 or an 800mm lens for FF35 to get the same FOV as the Angie at 240 would weigh as much as the whole camera/lens and would be huge by comparison. My budget too is more limited than would be needed to get a similar range of capabilities in S35. I like premium quality cine style lenses over most 35mm still lenses for their superior mechanics and more precise controls, especially the zooms. I prefer using a zoom in general over primes because I don't like to have to change lenses to get a shot.