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1st Time Pro Camera Purchase

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DDirector

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I have been waiting for several months to purchase a camera, but there have been things that kept on stopping me from purchasing one. One of them is cost. The other, is finding a camera that I wont regret buying.

I heard that RED was a great camera to get, but the prices were still high for me. Now, I heard about the Scarlet. The prices are a lot better for me now.

I am looking at spending $3K-$7K. Although, getting a camera for $7K would mean I need to wait at least a year.
So, I just want to ask about the different versions of the Scarlet. I am looking at one of the three; 2/3" 8x Fixed Zoom, 2/3" Cinema, S35.
But, I don't know what would be best for me.

I am looking for a camera that is similar to film cameras.
Basically, low Depth of Field.
Adjust colour levels well
24fps
shoot 16:9, 1.85:1, 2.35:1. - If I need to, I will buy a lens.
...etc.

With the purchase of the camera, I will also buy these:
approx. 7" LCD screen
Shoulder mount
Matte Box
And what ever else is needed to run the camera.

I am a bit new into these professional cameras, so I may not know what all these numbers and letters may mean. I am more of a Director, but I am trying to shoot my movies at a cheaper cost. Instead of renting and other expenses.

Could you help me out?
Perhaps the Scarlet wont be good for me. Maybe another RED camera?

Another thing I want to know is how exactly do these small camera work.
I also saw the SI-2K Mini. and both these cameras are small. And the Si-2K did not have any buttons or anything. From what I saw. Same as the Scarlet camera. How is everything controlled then?
 
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The SI-2K Mini camera module is just basically a sensor and a lens (of course there is other equipment in the box, but i'm summarizing), It's hooked to an external control module that can control all of the image parameters (Like sensitivity, shutter, etc.), and a capture module that can take the signal getting outputted from it.

Basically the same with the Scarlet, it has a control module and a screen with buttons that let you adjust all of the controls for the camera.
 
Totally agree with Jay - there's another thread on here discussing buying an FF35/S35 package, and my best guess (obviously a lot of the figures are still up in the air as regards the Scarlet line) was $15k absolute minimum for an S35 system, and that was pushing it, and didn't include any glass.

A 2/3" Cinema version (with the interchangeable lenses) is only going to be $4,500 less than that - so about $11k + lenses, which is unfortunately well out of your budget range.

I would guess that a 2/3" fixed lens Scarlet is still going to be a very nice camera, though...

HTH,
Dom.
 
well, what equipment/accessories would that basically include?

I am an indie film maker, and I am thinking that I might not need everything all at once.

I really would want the S35 over the 2/3" fixed, and non-fixed versions.

What I would do is have the basic setup that I need, and everything else that I need to purchase from RED. But other accessories, I can purchase from somewhere else as they will be cheaper. I would just do anything so I have a good system, but affordable.

Like the S35, which you say is at least $15K, what would that include?
What is actually needed to run these cameras?
 
get an EX-1 or EX-3 or HPX170 etc. shoot movies and in three years take a look around and see what is available,
 
DDirector said:
well, what equipment/accessories would that basically include?

I am an indie film maker, and I am thinking that I might not need everything all at once.

I really would want the S35 over the 2/3" fixed, and non-fixed versions.

What I would do is have the basic setup that I need, and everything else that I need to purchase from RED. But other accessories, I can purchase from somewhere else as they will be cheaper. I would just do anything so I have a good system, but affordable.

Like the S35, which you say is at least $15K, what would that include?
What is actually needed to run these cameras?
Click to expand...

You need some way of powering the camera. Either this will be with a battery plate, a battery module, or the handle. Next would be a monitoring device - either an EVF (RED's pro viewfinder is very expensive, but their new one might be cheaper) or a LCD display (RED are probably going to make a pretty small one that will be cheap enough to come with the Scarlet Fixed package, or you could get their bigger ones - 5.6" is $1700 and 7" is $2500). Finally, you will need storage - a CF writer should be included in the brains, but for longer recording, you might consider the RED DRIVE (640GB raid - $900) or a RED-RAM ($4500).

Then there's lenses - RED's Pro Prime set is good value at only $19, 000 for five T1.9 primes. Or you could use Nikon or Canon lenses of course.
 
DDirector said:
well, what equipment/accessories would that basically include?

I am an indie film maker, and I am thinking that I might not need everything all at once.
Click to expand...
When talking about accessories with these modular systems, we're not really talking about stuff you might want or need for specific jobs or types of shooting, but what you need to build a camera package that actually works - the system is modular, so the price you see for a "brain" is only going to get you - literally - a sensor and the electronics that go with it... No power, no media, no monitoring (not even a viewfinder for the operator!), no I/O for audio/video in and out of the camera, nothing.

For a more detailed list of how that $15k figure for the S35 rig breaks down, see this thread:
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=32500

That does not include any of the additional accessories you list, such as a mattebox etc. Nor does it include any lenses or a tripod.

As you say this is your first pro purchase, I would point out that it's not as simple as buying a consumer/prosumer camcorder where you buy the camera, take it out of the box and you're good to shoot - there are additional costs (a lot, with a modular system such as this) before you have even a working camera package. I understand completely the desire for the best system out there, but if that is really your intent, you need to up your budget - otherwise you need to decide on what the best camera you can get within your budget is, and forget about what you'd like to get if money was no object...

As I said before, a 2/3" Scarlet - even fixed lens - will undoubtedly create some fantastic pictures when used by a talented DP for 1080p or 2K finishes.

People, not kit (within reason) are what make great cinema, after all...

Cheers,
Dom.
 
you wanna save money by not buying lenses.. then go with the fixed lens..
however your looking at quite a bit for accessories..
mattebox = $800- $4000
ND filter set - $900- $1200
Follow Focus - crap one for $500, decent one $1000, best one $3500
Monitor -$ 700 for small hdmi, $1700 for reds
HEAD + TRIPOD - $1500 +
 
:thumbsup: I see. Thanks a lot for the clarification.



:banghead: I now decided to downgrade to a 2/3". Still, non-fixed lens.
So, If I do go with the 2/3"... is that a lot better then the Sony EX-1?

I am just trying right now to see how much it would cost me as exact as possible. Purchase what I can somewhere else cheaper, but what is needed to be purchased from here, I will do so. Or, I will just get the other sensor.

The one big thing that can be easily purchased for a significantly lower price is the LCD screen. The ones on the RED store was $2.5K for a 7", when I have a few places where I can also get a 7" for just under $500. Just purchase a cable and your set. nearly 2K in savings. UNLESS, if there is something specific with this LCD that I cant use a different one?

For recording, how many CF chips would be needed? and what is that connected to?
Or, the RED Drive/Ram, would the Drive be good enough? How much recording does the drive give?

As for the REDmote, is there a price for this yet? and I/O?

Basically, the setup I was intending on doing is something like this one.
The only thing is, its going to be the 2/3" Cinema and an LCD instead of viewfinder. and maybe an I/O module added to it too.
http://red1.ru/upload/xshouldermonsterevf_1.jpg
*If doing this set-up with the minor changes, it should be around $6500. Not including the lens(es).*


later down the road when I need to, I'll just purchase the S35. I'll have everything set to go. Only option I have.:frown2:

The 2/3" fixed lens, what kind of a lens is that anyways?

:undecided: .........? what to do...
 
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OK, in rough order:

No (real) idea how it will stack up against any other camera as yet, as it is not released. However, judging by the few test frames posted here, it looks like it will probably be better than an EX-1, yes. It will certainly be lower compression, has a larger sensor, will have great DR.

It's impossible, due to lack of knowledge of the cost of accessories/modules/etc to work out an exact price as of yet. My best guess is as detailed in the post I linked.

LCD screen - the Red system is proprietary, so you will need to get a Red screen to use the LCD outs on the camera. You could run an external monitor over HD-SDI, but you'd be looking at a similar cost for an HD-SDI capable monitor, so not much help there. The Marshall you linked to would cost $1299 for an HD-SDI version, for instance. It is not known whether a similar system to the R1 will be in place for the Scarlets, but as it stands at the moment, you would not get menus through the HD-SDI outs, which would be a huge problem.

How many CF cards would you need? Depends what you're shooting... A minimum of 4, I would suggest, and more if it's your primary recording medium. A Red drive will certainly be useable, although it's unclear what modes/compression settings it will support for the moment. Bear in mind you'll need two, so that you can continue shooting whilst you back up the other. On your budget, I would forget about Red-RAM. I would also expect to see an SSD-based solid state recording option launched by the time these camera come out that could be just the ticket, but that is pure speculation on my part.

Ultimately, it's going to be very difficult to decide on a configuration that works for your budget until more information about pricing becomes available - I would work out what it is that you will need for your application, and then wait until the cameras are released to decide which brain you can afford once you've got more info...

HTH,
Dom.
 
the biggest price issue here is the LCD. very expensive.
Is there any LCD in the 7" range that would work on the RED and have the menus?

Plus, are the menus for the RED needed? What exactly are they? Why are they so 'special'.

So, lets say, I get some LCD, and the menus dont work. but, I still have the whole option of changing the image and stuff. Wont that be fine though?
 
Dominic Jones said:
LCD screen - the Red system is proprietary, so you will need to get a Red screen to use the LCD outs on the camera. You could run an external monitor over HD-SDI, but you'd be looking at a similar cost for an HD-SDI capable monitor, so not much help there. The Marshall you linked to would cost $1299 for an HD-SDI version, for instance. It is not known whether a similar system to the R1 will be in place for the Scarlets, but as it stands at the moment, you would not get menus through the HD-SDI outs, which would be a huge problem.
Click to expand...

No way, mate - ever heard of HDMI? Lower priced monitors should be fine...
 
Peter Hodgins said:
get an EX-1 or EX-3 or HPX170 etc. shoot movies and in three years take a look around and see what is available,
Click to expand...

I concour - if your goal is "simply" to make movies, why waiting? Either buy one of those cameras or rent a RedOne if you manage to get the right budget for it. I've been working for quiet some time with the EXs and I can tell you they are pretty good. The EX1, with its 1\2-inch sensors, already has a quiet shallow depth of field (especially since the lens can stay open to 1.9 all the way to the maximum zooming).

I am looking forward the Scarlet system myself, but in the meantime we all need to work....
 
DDirector said:
:thumbsup: I see. Thanks a lot for the clarification.



:banghead: I now decided to downgrade to a 2/3". Still, non-fixed lens.
So, If I do go with the 2/3"... is that a lot better then the Sony EX-1?
Click to expand...

Well, even though the EX has larger sensors (1\2''), the Scarlet (pretty much every version of it) will definetly be better: RAW files, 4:4:4 color sampling, higher framerates etc.
The EX1 records with a bitrate of 35 MB\s max (10 units above HDV, yet it ain't that high), the sensor is 4:2:2 but is downsampled to 4:2:0 when recording on cards (always better than a native 4:2:0 sensor though - and you can record the uncompressed signal from the HD-SDI output) and can only be overcranked at 60 fps in 720p mode....also, a big glitch in the EXs is the rolling shutter: while it doesn't show up in normal operating, it's always there when it comes to stuff like crash-pans (I did an ad recently with the EX1 and the director wanted all the various segments to be linked by crash pans...luckly, he always wanted to super-blur 'em in After Effects). While the RedOne too has a cmos and so is a victim of rolling shutter, the sensor has faster scanning times, thus reducing the risks - and I bet the next generation of Red-sensor will do as well.

ps: sorry for the double post
 
Are there any recent or the earliest photos of the scarlet? 2/3" cinema.
I have obviously seen some on Google, but there seem to be different kids. some are black, and others are silver.
Which one is it exactly?

And, I am still planning on getting the 2/3" Cinema, but what type of lens is the fixed lens version, anyone know yet?

Any estimates on the final cost of a working 2/3" cinema camera?
 
DDirector said:
Are there any recent or the earliest photos of the scarlet? 2/3" cinema.
I have obviously seen some on Google, but there seem to be different kids. some are black, and others are silver.
Which one is it exactly?

And, I am still planning on getting the 2/3" Cinema, but what type of lens is the fixed lens version, anyone know yet?

Any estimates on the final cost of a working 2/3" cinema camera?
Click to expand...

Check this thread for photos of prototypes. I am sure production cameras will be black, these are the unfinished aluminum bodies.
http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?p=458309#post458309

For myself I am budgeting around $7-8k for a Scarlet Cinema package including a decent selection of used 16mm lenses and the modules for full field production support: Pro I/O module, Bomb EVF, maybe smart handle, attachment hardware, matte box, LCD of some kind, SSD module, power and batteries. Similar price range to EX3.
 
Hardware and DDirector... this is a REAL NAME Forum...

not being a dick, just letting you know before you get shut down or banned...

The mods have been fast about correcting real names... meantime if you at least go to personal settings and add your real name to the signature line... that can also work.

again, just a heads up. we all agreed to play by REAL NAMES>

thanks
 
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