1st time FCP Workflow Noob in Need of Help

[Art_Jaguar]

Greetings Gentlemen,

I apologize in advance, as I'm sure this may have been covered before a million times, but my search results weren't what I was looking for. If simply pointing to the correct thread via link is the best way to answer, please do so.

The basics: MacbookPro, OSX Leopard, 4GB of RAM, Core Duo 2.6, all of the footage is on a external HDD that I have connected via FIREWIRE 800

I am about to start my first RED One edit with Build 30 footage in FCP6.
This will most likely be viewed for cable TV but with the possibility of Theatrical release if it is picked up by a distributor.

FCP6 can not read the raw red files. As I understand from what I have read, I have 2 choices since I will not be editing the native .r3d files. Please tell me if I am wrong with anything i list below.

I am ready and excited to about my Learning Opportunity

1. Edit using the Proxy Files

Saves time since I am not transcoding into ProRes. I have my choice of which files to edit F/H/M/P. Does the file i choose NOW, the 4k(F) or the 1k (M) have anything with my final output/export?

Example , I choose to edit the 1k (M) now, and when I finish the entire film sequences, I can then finish with the 4k(F) file without any issues? How do I tell FCP to make the 'switch' from the 1k proxy to the 4k? I have read something about a Clipfinder, but I have no idea what that is. And after I have made my 4k 'master' is there a standard finishing codec? Does it depend where its going? Do I use ProRes422HQ? I will not be grading myself.

I have also read to NOT edit with the proxy files

Why not? What are the negatives? Positives? I somewhat understand the Proxy method Although I have not done it :L

2. Transcode the RED files into ProRes422 and Edit those files

Why do this? Doesnt this just take more time as i will have 3TB worth of media to convert?
Benefits over the proxy edit method? Looks nicer? Tends to be less of a headache later? Why? Pro's and Con's?

Do people transcode the .r3d files, or the Proxy files into ProRes for edits? If I cant read the RED .r3d files, is this why RED provides REDcineX? Do I use Redcine x to create the ProRes Files that your are supposed to edit with? Then import those into FCP? Is this method done so you dont need to Master a 2k or 4k later? When it switches over to a higher res version, does the Sound stay Sync'd?

I am totally clueless about this workflow process and why people do this :/

I thank anyone who can answer these questions in advance.

Sincerely,

Art

 

[Martin B.]

I'm no expert at all on this but what I can tell you is that working with proxies requires a lot of processing power. I believe that if you're gonna work on that macbook pro (same I'm working right now) the prores files are the way to go.

Anyway you'll have more replies from a lot more experienced people!


Regards!

 

[David Battistella]

It is a good idea to start with the FCP whitepare on the RED.com site.

Think of transcoding as getting you rfilm dallies. You only go back to the film when you have finished editing your, low resolution, lightweight files created for editing.


David

FWIW: Trying to edit those proxies from a FW drive is not a great idea. Have it all converted to something like DVCPRO HD 720 and work from that material.

 

[jimhare]

Hi Art,

Welcome to the community of Red!

Here are some simple answers to your question, though almost everything is subjective when it comes to working with R3Ds.

1. When you edit with proxies it doesn't matter which ones you use and they do not dictate anything about your final output. After your edit, you can either send it to Color for grading, in which case it will pick up the original R3Ds automatically, or you can save off an EDL/XML and provide it to the color timer along with your R3Ds. Most high end grading systems work natively with R3Ds so whether you're doing it yourself or passing it on, it's pretty straight forward.

The main reason not to work with proxies is that they are power hungry and you may find the editing experience frustrating as you may be stopping/starting all the time. Having said this, if you find it works well, go for it!

2. Transcoding to ProRes is great because it makes the editing process a breeze. This is best done with a Red Rocket card, which anyone shooting with Red should own anyway. If you do a full debayer and color correct the files to something pretty close to what you are looking for, it may be that you don't have to return to the R3Ds and can just edit and eventually grade the ProRes. For TV this is incredibly viable and you can always go back to the R3Ds if you get a theatrical release and want a 2k or 4k print.


Either way you will find the R3Ds are amazing when it comes to creating a final look, and are a no-compromise way of working.

What would be a mistake is to expect them to work like ProRes or DV etc. They are incredibly complex and need to be respected.

Best of luck!

Jim

 

[Art_Jaguar]

Thank you for the response Martin, I was under the impression that the Proxy files were a less power hungry way to work.

David, I am not familiar with RED Whitepaper? Can you provide me a link?

720HD DVCPRO as opposed to the ProRes? I do undertand that working with lightweight files will make the process easier... I just dont know HOW do to it, the process of it.

Ive worked with DVCPro HD before, but I have never had to transcode files in order to do so. I believe this is my main concern, Im scarred to take the Proxy files, convert them into something else, and then edit the say ProRes or DVC files as I dont know how they stay connected to the original RED files? Is it because I dont change the file name? I have never had to switch from one (Proxy)format to (ProRes or DVC)another, with the intention or knowledge that i may need to have it finished in RED files.

This may be really easy to do, but since I have not done it myself, Im a bit nervous as i dont want to create something, and then be stuck in that format with no knowledge of how to link that back up with the .r3d files at a later date. I hope this makes sense. I guess im looking for a walkthrough of the process.

Jim, thank you for the welcome.

1. I was not aware that no matter which Proxy file you edit, the grading system would pick up the original RED files anyway. Does this mean that if i edited the M file, Color would then pick up only that resolution? Or would my edits be shared across all Proxy and all r3d files? If i plan to finish with the 4k red files, I could simply edit the P proxy with out worrying about anything right? Thanks for the tip about saving EDL and XML files along with the project file, even though im not sure exactly how that works.

2. I dont have a Red Rocket Card, just the specs i listed about my MacBook Pro, would it still be beneficial to edit in ProRes? Great that you say I can easily go back to 2k or 4k, my problem is that I am a noob, and I do not know this process. I dont even know how to go from the files i have now,( do i use r3d which i cant read or do i use the Proxy files?) to get to ProRes. Is this done in FCP by sending them to compressor, or is this when I should use RedCineX?

I highly respect the RED files, this is why I am here asking before I even begin my task, as I do not want to screw anything up.


Thank you all for your responses.

 

[Colin Hubick]

Something you may want to consider is transcoding your RAW footage to a smaller offline format. For example in the past prior to Red Rocket, I would render out 1k 1/4 debayer resolution quicktimes in ProRes for the offline, then once your edit is complete create an EDL and then re-process and conform the project once finished.

The benefit this gives you is that the render times doing 1k 1/4 de-bayer are low, but the quality is still better than SD so for an offline it's a nice format.
As well when you get locked pic you only have to process out the footage in your cut, not every single frame of footage regardless if you used the shot or not.

Colin

 

[Ben Brainerd]

I was under the impression that the Proxy files were a less power hungry way to work.

Nope. Proxies (Even small ones) take a significant amount more horsepower than an equivalent-sized ProRes proxy because they have to deal with the R3D, even when doing a low-res debayer.

David, I am not familiar with RED Whitepaper? Can you provide me a link?

It's included in the RED FCP plugin download at red.com/support

720HD DVCPRO as opposed to the ProRes? I do undertand that working with lightweight files will make the process easier... I just dont know HOW do to it, the process of it.

Ive worked with DVCPro HD before, but I have never had to transcode files in order to do so. I believe this is my main concern, Im scarred to take the Proxy files, convert them into something else, and then edit the say ProRes or DVC files as I dont know how they stay connected to the original RED files? Is it because I dont change the file name? I have never had to switch from one (Proxy)format to (ProRes or DVC)another, with the intention or knowledge that i may need to have it finished in RED files.

Conforming from a proxy workflow is a pretty rock-solid science at this point.

Say you decide to use ProRes422 (Because you've only got FCP6 and can't use the new ProRes Proxy or LT) proxies.

You would take your footage (Or just your good takes) into RedCine-X and render them. There's a lot of options for codecs, resolutions, etc, but that can be covered in more detail later.

Import your rendered proxies into FCP. Edit. When you're done, fire up ClipFinder and reconform to the camera proxies. Send everything to Color (If that's where you're grading.

Simple. (Ok, it's actually reasonably complex, but not horribly so)

This may be really easy to do, but since I have not done it myself, Im a bit nervous as i dont want to create something, and then be stuck in that format with no knowledge of how to link that back up with the .r3d files at a later date. I hope this makes sense. I guess im looking for a walkthrough of the process.

The key thing here is that if you never change your filenames, you will ALWAYS be able to use ClipFinder or something similar to reconnect to the original files.

[/QUOTE]
1. I was not aware that no matter which Proxy file you edit, the grading system would pick up the original RED files anyway. Does this mean that if i edited the M file, Color would then pick up only that resolution? Or would my edits be shared across all Proxy and all r3d files? If i plan to finish with the 4k red files, I could simply edit the P proxy with out worrying about anything right? Thanks for the tip about saving EDL and XML files along with the project file, even though im not sure exactly how that works.[/QUOTE]

Color ALWAYS reconnects to the R3D file. The only way your chosen resolution makes any difference is in the sequence size, which is easily changed.

2. I dont have a Red Rocket Card, just the specs i listed about my MacBook Pro, would it still be beneficial to edit in ProRes? Great that you say I can easily go back to 2k or 4k, my problem is that I am a noob, and I do not know this process. I dont even know how to go from the files i have now,( do i use r3d which i cant read or do i use the Proxy files?) to get to ProRes. Is this done in FCP by sending them to compressor, or is this when I should use RedCineX?

Definitely RC-X. You might have to render overnight (Or over the weekend) but the benefits down the line will be immense. Or, if you've got the budget, there are a number of folks who provide transcoding services at reasonable rates.

To address a few points from your original post:

1. Edit using the Proxy Files

Saves time since I am not transcoding into ProRes. I have my choice of which files to edit F/H/M/P. Does the file i choose NOW, the 4k(F) or the 1k (M) have anything with my final output/export?

Editing with proxies is generally a BAD idea. Especially on a lower-powered machine like a MacBook Pro. You're opening yourself up to performance issues and potential crashes. Plus if you're working on a FW800 drive, speed will definitely be an issue.

Example , I choose to edit the 1k (M) now, and when I finish the entire film sequences, I can then finish with the 4k(F) file without any issues?

Yes, for certain values of "Without any issues". See below.

How do I tell FCP to make the 'switch' from the 1k proxy to the 4k? I have read something about a Clipfinder, but I have no idea what that is.

FCP won't do this. You need Clipfinder or similar. ClipFinder is a software program specifically designed for conforming and generally simplifying the RED workflow. See here: http://www.daun.ch/hamingja/

And after I have made my 4k 'master' is there a standard finishing codec? Does it depend where its going? Do I use ProRes422HQ? I will not be grading myself.

Your final codec greatly depends on your colorist's preferences and your delivery. Most grading software will read RED files natively, but the easiest answer to this question is "Ask your colorist what they prefer"

I have also read to NOT edit with the proxy files

Why not? What are the negatives? Positives? I somewhat understand the Proxy method Although I have not done it :L

See above. Performance issues, drive speeds, crashes. No positives that outweigh the risks in my opinion.

2. Transcode the RED files into ProRes422 and Edit those files

Why do this? Doesnt this just take more time as i will have 3TB worth of media to convert?
Benefits over the proxy edit method? Looks nicer? Tends to be less of a headache later? Why? Pro's and Con's?

Transcoding may take time, and seem like a headache, but it's ultimately worth it, especially if you're editing on a laptop. ProRes is a more or less rock-solid workflow, so you shouldn't run into any oddness with partially-supported formats. Especially since you're on FCP6 I can't recommend the proxy workflow enough.

Do people transcode the .r3d files, or the Proxy files into ProRes for edits? If I cant read the RED .r3d files, is this why RED provides REDcineX? Do I use Redcine x to create the ProRes Files that your are supposed to edit with? Then import those into FCP?

Most of the professionals I know/work with prefer the proxy workflow for its overall simplicity. It allows the editor to not have to worry about file formats.

Given that you're on FCP6, you'll definitely want to use RC-X to do your conversion.

Is this method done so you dont need to Master a 2k or 4k later? When it switches over to a higher res version, does the Sound stay Sync'd?

Depending on the care you take with your proxy generation, and your final delivery, you might not need to make a 2K/4K master later, at least for TV. Treat your ProRes proxies as a One-Light Transfer, do a bit of pre-grading in RC-X and run them off at 1080.

Sound will stay synced.

 

[Art_Jaguar]

Thank you for the very thorough response Ben, Im going to re-read this a few times to make sure I understand, and then try and put it into practice before I post follow-up marks.