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18-85mm or Super Speed Primes

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Andrew Ceperley

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I've got a shoot (my first with the Red) coming up next month. I'm still trying to decide on lenses.

The shoot is going to be very quick, and really tough...all on location, mostly handheld. We'll be shooting about 80% exteriors, plus some underground parking garage, and one night shoot. We'll have a handful of tungsten lights - a 5k, 2k, couple 1k's. So...a ton of shots, not a ton of time...you get it.

My question is, would the night shooting and the Red necessitate the T1.3 stop of the super speed primes (which will be annoying to switch constantly on the fly, with no AC), or will the T2.9 and handiness of the 18-85mm zoom be sufficient? I'd like the image to be as noiseless as possible, but I'd be willing to go to 500 ISO for the night stuff...so long as we have an 80A filter on the lens for all the tungsten light.
 
Well, I suggest use the Carl Zeiss High Speed T1.3 Prime Lens,
save your lights and it also great for the handheld shooting.
 
I agree with Perry. Because they require less lights Superspeeds really speed up shoots. And I am saying that because I was in a similar situation as yours a week ago.
 
I would also say go Zeiss SuperSpeeds. Hand held 18-85mm would certainly not be very run and gun. Also I would NOT put the filter on the lens of the camera, if thats what you mean by your above statement, gel up the lights don't filter the lens.
 
The extra 2+ stops of the superspeeds will save you a lot of time lighting. Plus they are so much lighter for handheld work.
 
There is a lot more going on here than simply assuming the T1.3 of the speeds will be better. First of all, just because a lens can be opened up to T1.3, does not mean they perform that great at that aperture. IMO, the superspeeds kinda suck when wide open. We don't even know any specifics about his shoot or the type of lighting available. What is the intended delivery for this? Can the noise produced by shooting above ISO 640 be mitigated if this is to be presented at lower resolutions? I would not fear shooting ISO 500+ for night exteriors, in fact it makes it a bit easier to protect highlights and blown out light sources.

Don't use an 80A filter - it will lose you a stop and a half... Already been said here. Either use an 80C - loses 1/2 to 3/4 of a stop and it corrects tungsten to 5000K, or gel the lights. There are advantages and disadvantages to either approach and some will depend on your optics and filter choices. If you are lighting with tungsten, you will need more light regardless of whether you are filtering the lights or filtering at the lens. If you can, filter your light sources... less glass in front of your sensor is always better. Also, if you will be catching light in frame from traffic lights, buildings, etc.. you may not want the color shifting effect of the 80x filter on those light sources.

Now we get to price considerations. A decent set of super speeds will cost you over $35K these days, but they're fairly inexpensive to rent. The RED 18-85 is $10K, and both are somewhat scarce if you're looking to buy. Michael points out the Cooke 15-40 -- it would be a great choice if the shorter focal length works for you, but it's fast at T2 and small enough for handheld work. There's also the Optimo 15-40 and Arri 15.5-45 LWZ-1. The Arri LWZ-1 is the shiznit because of its compact size and it matches sharpness and color characteristics with the Master Primes. It's T2.6 and while that's not as fast as the Cooke 15-40, it is a lot sharper with better field rendition and a lot less CA and fringing issues. Not that the Cooke is bad in that regard, but it produces some CA. I'm not sure what your budget allows, but the LWZ-1 and Cooke 15-40 would be great for rental consideration. I would personally love to own either, but have never been able to squeeze them into my budget.

As for handheld, that depends on the operator and their comfort zone... My Cooke 18-100 is a bit bigger and heavier than the RED 18-85 and I've operated it handheld on more than one occasion. It is definitely do-able, but it can really suck to do it. It makes for a very front-heavy camera that is difficult for one person to manage in a fast-paced environment. Usually requiring the camera rig to be quite long so batteries and drives can be used as counter-balance at the rear.
 
If you've (A) got low levels of illumination and (B) want to keep noise down, then basically you want to use fast lenses and expose well, not underexpose, so don't put a light-robbing blue filter IF all it does is keep you from getting a decent exposure, because that's counterproductive.

Even if the Super-Speeds don't look great below T/2.0, even T/2.0 is more exposure than T/2.9, which will help when you don't have enough light. You can carry both... and switch to the zoom when there is enough light.

I'd forget the blue filter for night exterior work in minimal available light. You're better off getting as much light as possible to hit the sensor. Again, carry the blue filter (maybe something lighter than an 80A though) and use it when you do have enough light level to compensate for it. Also, in color timing, let the tungstens go warm as a look rather than correct them to neutral white, thus not pushing the blue channel so hard. Work with the camera in the 4800K or higher range in terms of color temp base setting.
 
Jeff Kilgroe said:
As for handheld, that depends on the operator and their comfort zone... My Cooke 18-100 is a bit bigger and heavier than the RED 18-85 and I've operated it handheld on more than one occasion. It is definitely do-able, but...
Click to expand...

Hi Jeff

Do you use an easy rig when hand holding the red+18-100?


David Mullen ASC said:
Also, in color timing, let the tungstens go warm as a look rather than correct them to neutral white, thus not pushing the blue channel so hard. Work with the camera in the 4800K or higher range in terms of color temp base setting.
Click to expand...

to add to this:

I've done some tests and if you use tungsten light and set the camera at 4000-4500k you are in a safe place (assuming you 'like' the warmth you see)

The problem arises when you have tunsten light (worse if dimmed and bounced) around the 2500k-3000k range and you want to correct this out. This problem is aggravated when the scene is high contrast or you underexposed.

good luck...

Michael L
 
Wow, everyone on these boards are simply amazing. Though I hate asking these questions. Makes me remember how this is really only my second real project as DP.

Unfortunately, working with a lot of available light won't work out so well...it's all out in the middle of the forest. I wasn't sure about gelling the lights or putting the filter on the lens...wasn't quite sure if I'd loose too much light from the gels, or too many stops from the lens...but from what I'm reading, gels it is. We're shooting with all tungsten light, a 5k, 2k, 2-1k's, 650w, 300w, and a lot of faux-fog. Budget didn't really allow for HMI's...and Kinos are a bit too small for the wide open forest shots.

The delivery will be 1080p on D5 for an eventual Bly Ray and DVD release, so if the noise factor at 500+ won't be an issue after dropping the 4k down to that resolution, then that's incredibly helpful. I can't tell you how many people have been telling me, "Red One? You're crazy, just don't shoot over 320!" Why are some DP's so afraid of this camera?

I'm not too worried about the size or weight of the zoom...it's not the Angenieuz 24-290. The Zeiss super speeds were indeed what I was looking at. I've never used them before, only the scarcely heard of Optar Super Speeds. They were all right for the project, but I don't know how they'd hold up on the Red One. I was going to get a standard speed 135mm on top of the super speeds. It's a T2.4, anyone used it wide open?

I'm going to go super-speeds, which is what I was leaning toward anyone. I tend to shoot wide open anyway...though the resolution of the Red One may prove to be an eye opening experience for that. I don't really care for zoom lenses, I like shooting with a fixed focal length...zooms make me feel a bit lazy. Plus, if I used a 15-40, I'd need another lens to get me to at least 85...which at some point could become cost-prohibitive, with decent zooms being a tad expensive. Very low-budg.

Does anyone know what the flares are like on the Zeiss super-speeds? We'll have a lot of flashlights moving around in frame. The Optars barely flared at all...which for me, was a bit unfortunate.

Thanks so much for the plethora of quick responses!
 
the night shoot will be tricky with wide shots, tungsten light and the usual blueish moon light thinking... if this is a case you will prob need HMI's for the night work.. Fully correcting a 5k makes it really punny..

Super speeds flare wide open... there are special uncoated versions that really flare if your into that.. What kind of flares (situations) you looking for?

My advice (for what its worth) on using SS is to be careful trying to match the T1.3 stuff with t2.8+.. They looks like 2 lenses..

DO TESTS NOW at 500+ asa using the people who will process the raw data. There are tools for helping with noise that can help... don't assume 640+asa is OK for your project..

a soft litepanel on the camera (if your shooting fast with lighting challenges) that you can dial up or down is a real asset!

regards

Michael L
 
when you shoot your test ... try a few at ISO 1000/800/640 for 4k project with final output to 1080p ...
i haven't gone to D5 but have done 4k project (2-1 aspect) to 2k cineform edit, then crop ( not rescale) to 1080p blu ray ( iso 640 night exteriors looks very good 8ft screen)
do your own test out to blu ray ...
 
I think the SS choice is the way to go, I've done a bunch of night shooting on them recently, and I can't imagine trying to work with my RED lens at 2.8. Higher ISO's than 500 get to be pretty noisy, I would tend to try and avoid them.

The super speeds are definitely less contrasty at 1.3, but you can punch them up a bit in Redcine, way better than trying to pull image up from under exposed footage at 2.9

Cal
 
Michael Lindsay said:
Hi Jeff

Do you use an easy rig when hand holding the red+18-100?
Click to expand...

No. I'm assuming you're referring to the rig with the back-supported vest that has hangs the camera. If so, I saw them at last NAB, but I've never tried one.

The times I've handheld with the Cooke, the camera spent most of the time on my shoulder. The most brutal was 2 days of airshow event in August. That was 2 days from about 7:30AM to 5:00PM with the camera on my shoulder 90% of the time with that lens and no assistant. About 102 degree temps. Way hotter than that on the tarmac, could probably "fry an egg". I draped a white t-shirt over the camera most of the time because in the sun, it would get hot to the touch -- like burn yourself type hot. It performed great though, but I often thought the fan would give out.

I do what I can to lighten the load -- all rods 12" and longer are carbon, move the battery from the camera, if I can with a belt clip battery plate. I use a $50 shoulder pad I bought from FilmTools. I actually need to order a new one because I've trashed the last one I bought several months ago. The Arri bridgeplate wears into it pretty harshly with that heavy camera on top. Most of my handheld with RED is either with primes or the 18-50 lens. I only do the Cooke when I have to, but that airshow back in August required me to because it was a tight budget and the only lens I had at the time.
 
For handheld rig, I use the uGrip Diamond RED kit. That gives me handles up front positioned a bit forward of the center of gravity, but not by much. When mounting the Cooke zoom or other large lenses like that, whether it's on a tripod or handheld or whatnot, I prefer to move the batteries and drive to the rear of the camera. It helps to counter-balance the rig without adding extra height. Actually, I'm not a big fan of stacking up crap on top of the RED like you see a lot of people do. The battery and drive still won't fully counter-balance a big zoom lens, so for handheld work, moving the battery off the camera to cut some weight seems to be more practical most of the time as opposed to the little extra counter balance. I use the Arri base on the camera. Since that experience at the airshow and a couple others, I've made my own insert for the Arri base that allows me to position the camera better on my shoulder. It's really just a dovetail plate with a rounded underside that when used with a good shoulder pad, is pretty decent. I don't do tons of handheld work, so I haven't gone out of my way to make something better. I'm really looking forward to the ET handheld kit, but despite the rave reviews from Gibby and others, I really want to try it first. In many ways, it looks just perfect, but I'm still not convinced that the camera won't have it's center of gravity too high. But perhaps this is not as much of an issue with the pivoting shoulder support design.
 
Hi everyone

I am looking for Red 18-85 lens, my order takes few month, and we got a project shoot on may 2009, I could pay little extra, if someone has earlier order, or new lens.

cheers and many thanks

almassad2002@yahoo.com

al
 
Massad... You should re-post this in the jobs and equipment for hire section rather than bringing this old thread back to life.
 
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