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  • Hey all, just changed over the backend after 15 years I figured time to give it a bit of an update, its probably gonna be a bit weird for most of you and i am sure there is a few bugs to work out but it should kinda work the same as before... hopefully :)

1080P is Better Than 4K (Or Why I Chose the Canon C100)

I think its hilarious..

people arguing over resolution..

anyone a fan of roger deakins?

most of his gold is shot 1080/2k

go out an make good images.. 720.. 1080.. 2k.. 4k.. 5k. 10k.. i dare you to ask the random viewer if they can even see a difference..
pixel peeping is not cinematography
 
Difference can be seen by most BUT

If you shoot for what you have and want and not for what you do not have and do not want, you probably have the best tool for your project and the best result, and THAT result would probably NOT be better at a "different" resolution...
 
Gunleik Groven said:
Difference can be seen by most BUT

If you shoot for what you have and want and not for what you do not have and do not want, you probably have the best tool for your project and the best result, and THAT result would probably NOT be better at a "different" resolution...
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\

i just dont see a difference.. very few places are projecting in 4k.. my monitor on my computer where i watch almost everything is 1080..

so i dont see a difference.


i dont think resolution is the thing to love red for...

red makes a good camera, affordable, raw... im just not in with the resolution wars
 
Gunleik Groven said:
OK.

Guess the difference between you and me is that he and I go back some years... :)
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You take that obviously personal, not my intention to step on your toes. Really sorry.

Lets have a look to the rest, to get back on course. In his working area he needs no 4K in the near future (5-10 years from his POV). From this perspective I can see the base of his decision and certainly agree he has valid points there. Business means always to invest as little as possible to get the needed quality that is requested, if one likes to be in business. If the tool can produce accepted quality for the stations, the only thing that matters is the craft of the artist/operator, and the content one produces. I think that mixture is his main point, and that is OK with me.

The idea to use a cinema camera for TV is nice but certainly more based on passion than client needs from his point of view. I do not produce for TV and have no interest in that, so a C100 with capture device is not my personal ideal. (I used and own a EX1 with a Ki-pro mini. I even blow that material up at Technicolor to cinemascope, I got over 20 official acceptance for that work from festivals and the short won some awards. Similar to his idea, so yes that works)

His article shows that "The right tool for the job" needs a measurement. A bad crafts-menship can't be balanced with any camera. I certainly see his point.

I liked to read it and I'm happy that he shares it. I have made my decision and I save for an upgrade. Call it passion :o)

My best wishes.


Edit: I can understand his idea. -- Having said that: I think to make 4K a success we need to provide material, the economics need to be good -- to have people with money, and the distribution might need some changes as well, hehe. However, I certainly believe that a saturation of the HD-market is soon established, and the industry will push UHD hard if the market becomes slow in HD. Even Canon sells its concept as UHD and not HD. Resolution, dynamic-range and bit depth establishes quality, not resolution alone. Color-Science is very important, but hard to quantify for comparison/edit
 
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I see your point! :) No argument there. And I guess what you describe is true for a very high % of RED material shot around the world!

What I meant was that you see a difference if you get to see it at 4k.
And for some kind of images, especially those shot with 4k delivery in mind, the difference is very noticeable.

But I agree on all your points. 100%
 
michael zaletel said:
This will all depend upon whether the rumored Apple TV is a 4K display. If it is, the show is over and 4K adoption will happen overnight. If it is a 1080p display, Apple will have a hard time getting consumers to give up or sell their existing 1080p displays just for UI and UE improvements. .
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Are you serious? Do you think a large 4K adoption for the entire world would happen because Apple releases a 4K television? We are talking broadcast, new distribution format for home video, new workflow for post production facilities aimed for TV and webb etc.
If all people have 4K displays and broadcast have 4K as a standard then yeah... but is this the reality today? Are we even close? Have even the biggest broadcast companies begun to broadcast 4K signals? How about the bandwidth? How about the bandwidth of internet connections for streaming video when it's clogged as it is now (while streaming video takes up the largest part of internet bandwidth).

There are so many things that need to change before we are even close to 4K adoption. Just because you have a 4K apple TV in your home doesn't mean the world change over night. Distribution is another beast from acquisition.
 
No offence taken Dr Sassi, just stating a fact. Would have been unhonest of me not to disclose that we have shared a dialogue over several years. Not like daily, but occasionally. that is all. And I respect him.

That is not to say that we agree on everything, but he is a very open and sharing and knowledgeable guy.

I am also looking for a dragon upgrade. All that means is that his matrix is different from mine, not that I in any way think he is a bad craftsman... Because he has not been in any of the work I have seen from him.

Main point is:
Disagreements are only good, as those make one think through ones own choices once more....

Cheers!

(Virtual beer and beerhug comming over!)
 
Thanks for the reply Gunleik. Have a great weekend.

Edit: real disagreement means, that one is able to see 100% the point(s) of someone else. Otherwise you can't disagree. So real disagreement is great skill to have. Let me add one one point, I believe Canon thinks of the this camera as a 4K or UHD camera ;o) /Edit
 
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It's all about the distributors, not about if the audience can spot the difference between HD and 4K.

I believe distributors will begin asking for 4K masters for their deliverables very soon. They may not distribute the footage in 4K, but they'll want to have it in 4K. Try selling to distributors something shot in SD right now. Not gonna happen, even if many channels still show SD. They all want HD right now. In a couple of years, they'll all want 4K masters.
 
Jaime Vallés said:
It's all about the distributors, not about if the audience can spot the difference between HD and 4K.

I believe distributors will begin asking for 4K masters for their deliverables very soon. They may not distribute the footage in 4K, but they'll want to have it in 4K. Try selling to distributors something shot in SD right now. Not gonna happen, even if many channels still show SD. They all want HD right now. In a couple of years, they'll all want 4K masters.
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THIS is in sync with what I see in the fields I work...

Edit: And thus Dragon makes sense FOR ME, because as I see the request for 4k masters TODAY for projects which are expected to be screened well into the future, THAT part of my matrix suggest to stay with the higher resolutions.

But as he does not see that need, that checks differently for him.

Over all I think Zakaree is more spot on... :)
 
Zakaree Sandberg said:
I think its hilarious..

people arguing over resolution..

anyone a fan of roger deakins?

most of his gold is shot 1080/2k

go out an make good images.. 720.. 1080.. 2k.. 4k.. 5k. 10k.. i dare you to ask the random viewer if they can even see a difference..
pixel peeping is not cinematography
Click to expand...

That is right, and the difference between a 2K camera and a 1080p one is only 128 pixels..
 
While we are arguing here about resolution they are out there making the story.. One example: Game of thrones.. shot in 2K. I thought it was shot on Film, I am impressed..
 
Pablo Moreno said:
While we are arguing here about resolution they are out there making the story.. One example: Game of thrones.. shot in 2K. I thought it was shot on Film, I am impressed..
Click to expand...

Of course this is true, but this thread was started about an article comparing cameras, that's why people are discussing / arguing about resolution, among other CAMERA related topics.
 
Jaime Vallés said:
It's all about the distributors, not about if the audience can spot the difference between HD and 4K.

I believe distributors will begin asking for 4K masters for their deliverables very soon. They may not distribute the footage in 4K, but they'll want to have it in 4K. Try selling to distributors something shot in SD right now. Not gonna happen, even if many channels still show SD. They all want HD right now. In a couple of years, they'll all want 4K masters.
Click to expand...


The cold hard facts above.
So basically if you go shoot a low budget feature at 1080 now, once you cut it and happen to find a distributor, by that point they may insist on a 2k or 4k master. They may also frown at an upres version...
 
Bob Gundu said:
I supported Ryan when the shit hit the fan during the camera shootout. But I'm sure it has left such a bad taste in his mouth ever since. I don't believe he can be unbiased in his tests anymore. I wish him all the best, but I take his blog with a grain of salt now.
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I couldn't agree with you more Bob. We are in a new world, some of the statements made in the blog are just misleading. 4K content is not 5-10 years away, some of it is here now - certainly in theaters...

Look, I have a professor who uses the C-100 with a Pix-220 ... I tried to convince him to go Scarlet because of the upgrade path some time ago but he has very specific needs and wants.

I myself will try to sell my Pix 240 as a bundle and get the Proxy module so I can give clients that option without a different system than RED... Do I qualify as a Fan-Boy... I qualify as a very happy Cinematographer whom has chosen the tools I can get the best images with, which is by leaps and bounds RED.

Again, Ryan has a lot of experience, and some of his fans will love the article and potentially run out and buy a Canon C-100... I just remember Scarlet Night, November 3rd, 2011 ... Canon had their big announcement. And look, someone made a nice video for them which clearly had some good production value but without going into details, I saw a lot wrong with the C-300 C-500 image wise... Getting into the financial issues is another thing completely...

RED is the only company who offers upgrades to the flagship cameras, and their whole line kicks major tail still. The REDONE I would use in a heartbeat to shoot a film over just about any other camera out there to this day.

DSLR's and Canon's line of "cinema" cameras for me just aren't good enough.

I know the most important thing is the person behind the camera, and also what's done in post after, but as a painter the brush I choose is RED... And the paint are a combination of lenses & lights.

Great seeing you Bob, would love to come for a visit this summer.

- E
 
Rehan K said:
It can't be three years as in 2012 he did Zauto shootout with his own Epic, right? Maybe that is a typo.
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I would say it is...

But from experience I can say that publishing tests can make you old and can compress time a bit... :)
 
Ryan Walters was in no way paid by Canon, and his comment about renting for three years refers to the fact that he paid money for the upgrade from the RED ONE to the EPIC but sold his EPIC right after receiving it.

The article might have been reposted on nofilmschool, and the site might be run by a bunch of filmmakers, but we write for a varied audience who are doing much more than just making films - and we ourselves make money from more than just making movies.

I think a lot of people have missed one of the big ideas behind the post in the first place, that a camera that only costs $5,500 is a lot more affordable to a lot more people, and won't likely require them to go into debt. He didn't own a camera for three years because it didn't make financial sense. Too often people purchase cameras that become a serious financial burden because they are hoping the camera will make them more money, but very often that's not necessarily the case - producing better work will usually lead to more money because it opens up more opportunities.

It completely depends on what you're doing, but if you check out Ryan's work and what he's shooting (which is what he does for a living) 1080 is going to be the standard for a lot of it for quite a while. There are other considerations related to 4K which he suggests, but as a personal camera and one that makes him money, this was the best decision for him, and likely for a lot of people who may not be making any more money from their gear just because they paid more for it.

He is still going to be shooting on RED and Alexa and everything else out there - I think a lot of people are also missing that. He is strictly talking from an owning perspective, that at this budget level he can safely own a camera and not worry about paying it off, and when projects call for better cameras, he's going to rent them just like he has in the past.
 
The article, while well written, is full of contradictions. Getting rid of all cameras so you can rent - only to then buy the C100. Saying that he is not interested in gear renting out only to mention few lines bellow that shortly after he bought the C100 it is already renting out. Making a point that inexperienced post people will ruin "flexible" RAW footage?!? Etc...

But all that is irrelevant to what I want to say in response...

A. The C100 is great tool for short-shelf-life projects like TVC's and other marketing material that is primarily destined for internet and that don't have the time and resources for proper post. As the adds will be irrelevant in few months (if not weeks) - to future-proofing of such a content is irrelevant and super fast workflow with limited budget is the word of the day...

B. 4K. We are talking here about cameras - the acquisition end of the workflow. Anyone thinking 4K is away for even a 1 year is kidding themselves. FYI - NHK here is Japan is trailing 4K broadcast as we speak and will officially initiate it next year. It does not matter that there are still people in rural Japan that don't even have a TV or internet. You don't evolve by matching your standards to the lowest available denominator. Aside of commercial content (that is time critical) pretty much everything else has future potential. Broadcasting is also changing as we know it (I for one watch more content online then on TV these days) and to add to the likes of NHK - you will see 4K content online. Speaking of RED - they have already demonstrated that 4K content can be streamed with data-rates lower then current HD - which seems to work just fine for the millions of users connected via broadband... All of these 4K content providers are already hungry and in search of 4K UHD content...

And speaking of UHD - upscaling is not accepted. Check the SMPTE specs - UHD content has to be acquired at 4K min...

So wake up. 4K is here now. Not in 5 years, not in 25 years. NOW.
(again we are talking about acquiring content - not a ordinary folks in a remote areas actually watching it...)

C. Owning a camera. Ryan is certainly right about skills and experience being ever more important (even thou he used the point in a wrong way). I, as a DoP and Colorist, improve myself with every single project I do. Back in the days of 35mm the thing I hated the most was that it was $$$-wise impossible for me to just go out and shoot stuff in order to practice and improve my skills. I use every little time I have between paid jobs to improve my skills and gain more experience (even thou I have been doing this for 15 years now). The only way I can do this is owning a camera. And more importantly - I need to own a camera that limits my creative expression the least. When I sold my 235 in order to buy the first (720P) Varicam back in 2003 - I did so for the very reasons I have just mentioned (the cost of practicing with 35mm). But I immediately hated the limitations imposed by the then-emerging digital formats. I have worked with pretty much every major digital camera available on the market since. And have settled on the RED. Simply because it get closest to least limiting of what I can do as a DoP / Colorist in all aspects. Resolution, RAW format, DR, modularity - and by far not the least - future-proofing of my equipment. Yes. Until RED these two words could not have been used together. Not only all improvements implemented via SW (firmware) are completely free with RED, they also have an amazing upgrade and trade-in programs that keeps my investment up-to-date. This allows me to constantly improve my skill-sets and gather ever more experience between paid jobs...

Now do I enforce the RED on my clients? Not in the least. In the last year alone I have done projects on Alexa, C300/C500, 5D/7D, several SONY models and all three RED flavors. Sure - when the client wants to use the RED - by all means mine is there for taking. But this is not why I own the RED...

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So I do understand why Ryan have chosen the C100 - as he mostly shoots commercial projects with extremely short shelf-life. Good for him. I just wish he made this key point clearer in the title and in the article itself...

Choose the right tool for what you do...
There certainly is not a camera that does all and kills all out there. But there are cameras now that come pretty close to do all kill all for what YOU PERSONALLY NEED. That means different cameras for different people. It is C100 for Ryan and it is the RED for me. And it is the F55 for Mr.X and BMD cams for Mr.Y...
Choose wisely and rent for those (hopefully rare) instances when you need something else...

Peter
 
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