1.8" SSD Module

[Gunleik Groven]

I totally understand the general desire to use 3rd party media - saving money. But when I look at the entire camera system and think about places where I'd want to cut corners to save a buck, the media is the absolute last place. What good is a fantastic sensor, awesome features and a tiny design if you lose the footage you shoot because you tried to save a buck? It's the same to me as when a huge production skimps on buying adequate hard drive and LTO storage. It just makes no sense. Would a show ever set up a million dollar stunt and then buy expired film out of the UPM's fridge? Hell no.

I think that before we all start trying to cut corners and save money... we ought to see what we have here first. It's not RED trying to close off the use of third-party media to make a profit. It's RED trying to make the camera they're building for us function - always function - as advertised.

I think this is a cool way to sum up the discussion, make this post a sticky and close the thread... -:O

 

[Noah Yuan-Vogel]

Would a show ever set up a million dollar stunt and then buy expired film out of the UPM's fridge? Hell no.

I think that before we all start trying to cut corners and save money... we ought to see what we have here first. It's not RED trying to close off the use of third-party media to make a profit. It's RED trying to make the camera they're building for us function - always function - as advertised.

I agree completely with regard to movies shooting on some flavor of RED that have significant budgets, but remember RED is soon to be no longer just about digital cinema. With scarlet they may be opening up access to much smaller owners/productions, even things like ENG, documentary, event videography, still photography, and low-budget web content where lower bitrates and cheaper media may be preferred. These are not people who want or care to spend 10x the going rate on standard media just to be sure its been carefully tested to not drop frames at REDCODE100. These are people who might even want to shoot REDCODE10 if they can save a few bucks in post or if that means they can shoot to cheap media they can hand over to a client at the end of the day and still have enough media left over to shoot the next day.

I think flexible codecs and flexible media options could open up so many options for new ways of using the camera. I get that some technical professionals know what the best workflow for best image quality and the best data security and try to adamantly stick to that, but they are also the ones that know better than to bring some sketchy CF card the got on ebay and shoot a million dollar movie on it. Some content could actually suffer or productions not be able to shoot with such amazing cameras if it means being forced into always using the best most expensive media at the highest bitrates.

Also, I doubt RED can guarantee their certified media wont fail and lose your footage, they can only pick a good manufacturer with a good reputation and test each CF/SSD to make sure it is consistent in its speed so as to not drop frames at particular bitrates. We can also pick good manufacturers with good reputations and test for bitrate compatibility.

 

[DCC Erickson]

... We can also pick good manufacturers with good reputations and test for bitrate compatibility.

I don't think I can get my $60 back from Transcend or SanDisk when I complain that the SDHC card I bought on Amazon doesn't pass my test for bitrate compatibility. Buy cheap and suffer. It's the worst possible place to cut corners.

 

[Jarred Land]

im glad some of you guys get it

 

[Brian F Kobylarz]

I would like to believe most of us do.
We just read some of the remarks appearing in these threads and, slowly shaking our heads, ponder if it's too early to pour a drink. Then just sigh and move on. There's work to be done.
We get it.

 

[Tony Lorentzen]

Brook pretty much sums it up. What some people don't get (and probably never will) is that just because two products might look the same, doesn't necessarily mean there's the same stuff inside.

 

[Andrew Luczenczyn]

I cant remember exactly which book I read it in, possibly the Camera Assistants handbook, but Ill always remember it.

NOTHING is more valuable than your footage. That is your paycheck, your vision, or your recorded history. NOTHING can bring that moment captured back. If a battery fails, get another one. Broken light, get another one. Lose your footage, it will never come back. This is even more emphasized in ENG or documentary work.

I think everyone has had that one moment in their career when they go "oh shit where are all the files! were is the movie!!!". I personally want to limit those moments to as close to never as possible.

 

[Christopher Nagel]

Brook pretty much sums it up. What some people don't get (and probably never will) is that just because two products might look the same, doesn't necessarily mean there's the same stuff inside.

I'm only answering now because I feel slightly responsible for this sidetrack on the thread. Unfortunately I think we've reached the flammable flashpoint. (The lower the stakes, the more vicious the fight...)

My intention when asking about the pinouts and connectors was not precursory to slapping some piece of crap from Zeke's Bait & Storage onto my perty RED brain, but because I could foresee 3rd party storage being a nice niche market. Understanding that REDUser is not quite the forum for opening a B2B negotiation, it was an interesting avenue of discussion and not wildly off-topic from what'd already been said, so why not mention it?

It seems there's an assumption on most of your parts that sole-sourcing of media is the only way to obtain reliability; conversely that non-RED sources are always inferior in quality. I hope this is just my misperception of the posts.

Non-RED doesn't necessarily mean non-quality, it only means non-RED. Someone might use a Zeiss or Nikkor lens on their Epic. Someone might use an Arri light or two. Someone might not wait for RED to produce dolly tracks and Steadicam arms. Someone might use non-RED actors. Maybe... just maybe...someone might want to preserve his high-quality premium-priced RED media for paying productions (you all know that SSD's are not rated for infinite read/writes) and for "messin around" or doing tests maybe they'd use less expensive (but still quality) media cards...

Or maybe someone wants to start a 3rd party storage operation and, like RED, deliver better quality at lower cost.

Chris

 

[Craig Schober]

Non-RED doesn't necessarily mean non-quality, it only means non-RED. Someone might use a Zeiss or Nikkor lens on their Epic. Someone might use an Arri light or two. Someone might not wait for RED to produce dolly tracks and Steadicam arms. Someone might use non-RED actors. Maybe... just maybe...someone might want to preserve his high-quality premium-priced RED media for paying productions (you all know that SSD's are not rated for infinite read/writes) and for "messin around" or doing tests maybe they'd use less expensive (but still quality) media cards...

Or maybe someone wants to start a 3rd party storage operation and, like RED, deliver better quality at lower cost.

Chris

while i agree with your examples, they directly conflict with your own argument. all of these things can be replaced by 3rd party offerings but not the media. the media is a special case because it is so important. to my knowledge, red has not officially sanctioned use of any 3rd party media because none of it is quite fast enough. there's fast media and then there's red-optimized fast media. compared to all the computers, dslr cameras and mp3 players out there, red is a niche market. why would any other company bother developing a super fast cf card that would never drop a frame? they don't and that's why red has to step in do it themselves and if you look at their pricing, it's very fair compared to similar (but not red approved) offerings.

 

[Christopher Nagel]

while i agree with your examples, they directly conflict with your own argument. all of these things can be replaced by 3rd party offerings but not the media. the media is a special case because it is so important.

It *is* unutterably important - most of the time. When it's important should be the user's decision. People who own pristine low-mileage collector vehicles also have "daily drivers". Not everyone brings the A game to the B movies (or camera experiments). I probably might. Not everyone.

to my knowledge, red has not officially sanctioned use of any 3rd party media because none of it is quite fast enough. there's fast media and then there's red-optimized fast media. compared to all the computers, dslr cameras and mp3 players out there, red is a niche market. why would any other company bother developing a super fast cf card that would never drop a frame?

I wouldn't expect a new CF card, but maybe all the features not available with RED's SSD? e-ink, lcd for off-camera playback, write-protect tab, side-mount replacement for cf card slot, raid10 internals, hot-swappable during recording, automatic wireless offload when inactive, etc. etc. Now that'd be sweet. And fun. And useful.

And most of all, it would free up REDs awesome engineers to focus on the revolutionary awesomeness of camera design rather than the pedestrian coolness of storage design.

they don't and that's why red has to step in do it themselves and if you look at their pricing, it's very fair compared to similar (but not red approved) offerings.

I sorta agree with this except I find the 1500 for the bus attachment a little pricey... What does the module do other than match pins so the SSD can see the datastream? I'd have thought the module and the reader would be more similarly priced (and down around 150), but I ain't arguing, just wonderin'...

Personally I think everything in the world is now overpriced. But I'm just an old hippie so pay me no mind...

Good talkin to ye.

Chris

 

[tillHavis]

Of course I could be totally wrong here but how it is presented at the picture above doesn't look safe and protected enough.

How?

Let's talk about two possible scenarios:

A: I'm shooting "Burning Man" in Nevada's desert and suddenly desert storm happened and camera suddenly stopped to record
just because some of a small dust pieces were entered inside and interrupted my recording.

B: I'm shooting in Borneo or Amazon Jungle a long time-lapse scene overnight and suddenly recording stopped just because some of
insects (ants), worms or even a drop of water made by high level of humidity in the air entered inside of the cam and interrupted my recording.

There are just two possible scenarios of interrupted shots or recording when media (module) is not protected enough safely inside of the cam from the beginning on.

I'm 100% with Sanjin on this. This is a biggie. The last thing anybody wants to deal with are corrupt or damaged drives. If there is the slightest chance something can go wrong then back to the drawing board.
This should be treated with the same attention to detail users do over Resolution, DR, or anything else for that matter.
I cant help but be thankful that so many people out there, including the Red team, care so much that they are not willing to let things just be OK.
Well done !!

 

[Shawn Booth]

After 10 pages, I did not find an answer to my REAL BASIC question.

IF I want to shoot with 1.8" SSD media, I need to have the following?

REDSTATION BASE : $250

1.8" REDSTATION reader : $250

1.8" ssd module : $1500

128gb 1.8" redmag $1500

In addition, ideally I assume I would purchase above PLUS 3 more REDMAGs. Or do I need even more REDMAGs? (features/television work). I currently have 5 8GB CF cards (almost never used anymore) and 2 x 320 HDs. This works wonderfully so far...

And how about SSD reader? Will 1 suffice?

 

[Guillermo Freige]

After 10 pages, I did not find an answer to my REAL BASIC question.

IF I want to shoot with 1.8" SSD media, I need to have the following?

REDSTATION BASE : $250

1.8" REDSTATION reader : $250

1.8" ssd module : $1500

128gb 1.8" redmag $1500

In addition, ideally I assume I would purchase above PLUS 3 more REDMAGs. Or do I need even more REDMAGs? (features/television work). I currently have 5 8GB CF cards (almost never used anymore) and 2 x 320 HDs. This works wonderfully so far...

And how about SSD reader? Will 1 suffice?

You don't really need the redstation base. Totally optional.
But you need an EPIC or a SCARLET to attach the ssd module to :laugh:!

Guillermo

 

[Shawn Booth]

You don't really need the redstation base. Totally optional.
But you need an EPIC or a SCARLET to attach the ssd module to :laugh:!

Guillermo

So what is point of Base Station then? Post side?

EPIC is reserved. Just trying to understand the pieces/parts I will need to purchase...

 

[Michael Olsen]

So what is point of Base Station then? Post side?

EPIC is reserved. Just trying to understand the pieces/parts I will need to purchase...

RED Station provides a unified power bus for your readers. So if you had 3 SSD readers, you could stack them all on the Base Station and only run one power cable. In my opinion, if you've only got one reader, the Base Station becomes drastically less useful since - either way you look at it - you will be running one power cable and one data cable. If you have three modules (the maximum spec) on the Station at once, however, its a difference between having four cables (1 power + 3 data), or having six (3 power + 3 data).

IMHO RED has continued to provide solutions to problems - cable management and ease of interoperability in this instance - but without forcing people to buy them. If you don't care about an extra couple of cables and can deal with keeping your power cables plugged in properly, then do without the Station. If you want/need the minimum amount of clutter possible or have hard to reach outlets (or even a limited number of outlets), get it. Everybody walks away happy

 

[MikeCurtis]

hell yeah.

hell yeah.

It's not RED trying to close off the use of third-party media to make a profit. It's RED trying to make the camera they're building for us function - always function - as advertised.

Hell yeah. I've tested too much media that AVERAGED over the target rate that didn't SUSTAIN at/above the target data rate.

That there = dropped frames - then those same cheapo producers call the camera a POS because they cheaped out on the media, or drives, or LTOs, etc.

-mike

 

[MikeCurtis]

On the other hand, if the pin-out was open, or the connector OEM'ed, some enterprising young buck could come along and manufacture a lower-cost media option with more bells and whistles and thereby *grow* the RED ecosystem in a more meaningful way than a plastic bezel to clip over the RED storage.

The accounting used by this fictitious smaller company would be different than RED's, and therefore the margin between break-even and profit could be smaller and closer to OEM (wholesale) pricing too -- probably.

If productions routinely eschew the simple procedure of transcoding to HD from RAW "because it costs money", then the DP's argument for RED-branded media "no matter the cost" would likely fall on deaf ears ITRW.

This would also go for a 3rd-party side-mount option: if that pin-out and spec were available (it's 80% probability that it's just the CF spec, but ya never know), then an e-ink'ed, write-protectable, double-buffered, raid10 side-storage might be possible...

IMHO, RED could better focus its limited engineering resources on creating a spec implementation and be open to smaller 3rd parties with great ideas wanting to join them in the revolution. At this stage, parts of it might be like trying to hit a moving target, but much of it has been solid for a while and could be effectively built-upon.

Chris

Totally, totally, totally disagree with you. A smaller manufacturer, that no one has heard of yet, would have to market (cost) this new device, reverse engineer some stuff (cost), would be less trusted than the OEM (lower volumes, lesser volume price breaks on materials), etc etc etc - for such a niche product.

Just trust Red to get it right. It will almost certainly be reasonably priced, given the market size and performance specifications required.

Look how long it took for P2 to have valid alternatives...and the price delta between Panasonic's and the alternatives.

-mike

 

[Mickey Conway]

Long live RED. Keep us up dated. Can you post some new pics? I love all of this new stuff.

 

[Shawn Booth]

RED Station provides a unified power bus for your readers. So if you had 3 SSD readers, you could stack them all on the Base Station and only run one power cable. In my opinion, if you've only got one reader, the Base Station becomes drastically less useful since - either way you look at it - you will be running one power cable and one data cable. If you have three modules (the maximum spec) on the Station at once, however, its a difference between having four cables (1 power + 3 data), or having six (3 power + 3 data).

IMHO RED has continued to provide solutions to problems - cable management and ease of interoperability in this instance - but without forcing people to buy them. If you don't care about an extra couple of cables and can deal with keeping your power cables plugged in properly, then do without the Station. If you want/need the minimum amount of clutter possible or have hard to reach outlets (or even a limited number of outlets), get it. Everybody walks away happy

Thank you.

 

[Hrvoje Simic]

I agree completely with regard to movies shooting on some flavor of RED that have significant budgets, but remember RED is soon to be no longer just about digital cinema. With scarlet they may be opening up access to much smaller owners/productions, even things like ENG, documentary, event videography, still photography, and low-budget web content where lower bitrates and cheaper media may be preferred. These are not people who want or care to spend 10x the going rate on standard media just to be sure its been carefully tested to not drop frames at REDCODE100. These are people who might even want to shoot REDCODE10 if they can save a few bucks in post or if that means they can shoot to cheap media they can hand over to a client at the end of the day and still have enough media left over to shoot the next day.

If Redcode100 is equivalent to similar range in MB/s, shooting in UHD @ 100MB/s for ENG, event videography, and low budget web content is kind of like using a Bugatti to deliver pizza.

People who want to save a few bucks and shoot 100 MB/s + are not being very realistic.

Over here we have a nice term for those.